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ChiDragon
USA
2863 Posts |
 Posted - 12/20/2007 : 5:08:38 PM
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To whom it may concern:
This is the translation from the interpretation a native scholar, Mr. Chan Gu Yeng. He is considered a well known scholar that has full knowledge of the Tao Te Jing. He had make an intellectual study for all the possible meanings of the characters and phrases. He went through all the chapters and linked the meanings of the terms and phrases. He had sat hypothesis for the meanings of the words in the Tao Te Jing and reasoned with logics. Thus, he eliminated any nonsense thoughts and made an interpretation of the Tao Te Jing as close as to its true meaning.
The interpretation of Chapter 1 is very important. Any misinterpretation will cause mistranslation into another language. Furthermore, the words used in another language will cause more translation errors.
Please note that I am not here to claim any authority on the subject, nor the master of the Chinese language. It is simply to find the true meaning of the Tao Te Jing. May I ask you to consider this translation as a study material objectively. Thank you very much for your interest.
Yours truly,
James S. Lee
道德經 第一章
1. 道可道，非常道。
2. 名可名，非常名。
3. [無]，名天地之始。
4. [有]，名萬物之母。
5. 故[常無]，欲以觀其妙。
6. [常有]，欲以觀其徼。
7. 此兩者同出異名，
8. 同謂之玄，玄之又玄。
9. 眾妙之門。
Tao Te Jing Chapter 1
1. Tao can be spoken is not the eternal Tao.
2. Name can be named is not an eternal name.
3. None, named at the origin of heaven and earth.
4. Exist, named as mother of all things.
5. Thus, always None, would observe its subtlety.
6. Always Exist, would observe its boundary.
7 These two from one origin with different name,
8. Same as mysterious, so mysterious and even more mysterious,
9. The pan mysterious gate.
Annotations:
1. Tao is eternal; therefore it was not addressed as the Tao. Thus, It is analogous to God.
2. A given name is not eternal; therefore a name cannot be given to Tao.
3. Tao was named as "None" at the beginning of the universe. "None" does not mean that Tao does not
exist. It simply means that Tao was non-visible at the time, but Tao has the great creative potential
power.
4. Tao came into existent, was named "Exist" representing as "mother nature" because all the things
had created by Tao. Thus, the physical things revealed Tao's existent.
5. So, when Tao is always in the non-visible state, one would look for its surprising behaviors.
6. Tao came into the visible state; one would look at its limitations.
7. The two (None and Exist) came from the original Tao, with different name, have the same mysterious
phenomena.
8. Tao is the gate of all changes.
ChiDragon |
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Nina
USA
6392 Posts |
Posted - 12/20/2007 : 6:24:47 PM
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Well, different strokes for different folks.
Did you come here to discuss your own interpretations and feelings about that chapter, ChiDragon?
-Nina
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jimclatfelter
USA
1026 Posts |
Posted - 12/21/2007 : 3:50:37 PM
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Hello James,
Thank you for sharing this translation of Chapter One. It's similar to many of the more literal translations, but the English is a little odd. "Named can be named" is not grammatical English. "The name that can be named" would be better. "None" and "Exist" instead of Being and Non-being is not very familiar or readily understandable in English. "Always Exist, would observe its boundary" is not a full English sentence.
I agree that Chapter One is the foundation of all the later chapters. I like the distinction between visible and not visible. It correlates with being and non-being, with the named and the nameless. As you say, "the two came from the original Tao." They are two aspects (or views) of the Tao. They also correspond, in my opinion, to the yang and yin of chapter 42, yang being the named and yin the nameless.
I'd like to see this put into more grammatical English, so that the words flow. I find the wording too choppy and unconventional as it is now.
Respectfully,
Jim
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Edited by - jimclatfelter on 12/21/2007 3:52:07 PM |
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Nina
USA
6392 Posts |
Posted - 12/21/2007 : 6:15:04 PM
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Nice try, Jim, but I have the feeling we won't be hearing from our new friend James again. Just my sense...... He's trying to promote someone's translation by posting it here. But I could be wrong.
Anyway, I agree with what you said about some translations getting very choppy because they try to just use one word for each Chinese character. Whenever someone translates between languages, there's a certain amount of editing one has to do to make it readable and understandable.
Heck, even in English we use different words with each other in an effort to get the gist of what someone else is saying.
Also, the fact that each Chinese character has a variety of English definitions makes it even more interesting. And English? "Virtue" has a few different meanings........ What fun to see how people translate the character De!
-Nina
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jimclatfelter
USA
1026 Posts |
Posted - 12/22/2007 : 09:06:20 AM
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Hi Nina,
What does De mean in English? That's a tough one for me. It's certainly not moral virtue. It's not economic, political, or muscular power. Virtue and power seem to be the most common translations. Integrity is sometimes used as well. It's used about 44 times in the Daodejing. It's even in the title, so it has to be important. Yet no rendition uses the same English word to translate De in each of its 44 occurrences in the text. To me it's a natural grace that comes from living (being in tune with) Laozi's Way. How's that for vague?
How do you translate De for yourself? Both Virtue and Power have such strenuous and harsh implications. I can see why Grace could be the same for some people, since it's associated with Western religion. There doesn't seem to be a good English word for De. Integrity seems pretty good. It's related to truth and honesty and to natural fact. Doin' a-what comes naturally! There is a real power behind that, the power of truth, of acting in accord with your own nature. To thine own self be true! There's a lot to be said for that. There is a kind of grace and ease that comes from acting naturally and true to yourself. De is all of that to me. But what single English word would serve the best? I don't know. Most of the words that come to mind have unwanted implications tied up with Western religion and politics.
Jim
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Edited by - jimclatfelter on 12/22/2007 09:06:57 AM |
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bradford
USA
509 Posts |
Posted - 12/22/2007 : 09:48:57 AM
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This is something I wrote about De to a friend on another forum
Even before studying Chinese, I had always preferred character to virtue or power.
Maybe that's from being a man of conscience (instead of a man of morals).
I was first given De as a particularization of the Dao - what becomes of a person as they
approach tracking the path best suited to them by their original nature - what
Castanada called the path of power (it always worked for me in that sense of power).
It also works with the Greek sense of the word Virtú. Then I combined all that with
a quote I saw long ago in the Whole Earth Catalog:
The flow of energy through a system acts to organize that system.
Harold Morowitz, Energy Flow in Biology
So an alignment with the Dao conferred greater energy, clarity and order, in part just by
not squandering it on resistance and sideways motion. So there was a health and robustness
about De, an integrity and a knowing of right from wrong. That all added up to character,
much more than virtue.
bradford
www.hermetica.info |
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david
USA
1398 Posts |
Posted - 12/22/2007 : 11:50:37 AM
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I personally don't have a problem with giving some license to choppy poetry, particularly if it's translated; why does it have to be 'perfect' in my language? Just for clarity? Try reading the metaphyiscal poets like Donne where words are conflated and twisted...
If it's too clear, I don't think about what it really means or what it is trying to say. I wonder if the original chinese would be considered grammatically correct or is it 'sound' good. It seems ancient chinese also differs and is much shorter than modern chinese, or if the poem is following a word number pattern.
Anyway, while a little work could be done to improve it, I personally liked the use of "none" and "exist" to make one think more about what is being attempted or expressed... "being" and "non-being" for me carry too much connotation which misleads. Maybe "none" is getting too close to association with "void", but we can have a 'being' in our head which doesn't exist; and one cannot say a 'non-being is' for that may give it existence. I'm not saying 'exist' is better but I start to really think more about it when that word is used. |
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jimclatfelter
USA
1026 Posts |
Posted - 12/22/2007 : 3:04:18 PM
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Hi Bradford,
I forgot about Character as a term for De. It seems to be related to Integrity. A person of character is a person of integrity. I like it in that sense. However, I still find an element of judgment in it. Maybe I shouldn't. I have heard people with a religious outlook say of others that they have a good or bad character. That taints the word a little for me. I understand that you aren't using it with those connotations in mind. Of the four most common words for De梬hich seem to be Virtue, Power, Character, and Integrity桰 like Integrity the best, but I don't think it's adequate. None of the words convey to me a sense of the "alignment with the Dao" that you mention. I like what you say about this alignment allowing us to avoid wasted motion. That's what I meant by natural Grace and ease. De happens when one is aligned with the Dao and has dropped the cultural conditioning that blinds us to our own best and natural interests. De happens when I'm aligned with and backed by the Dao. It's being in the groove, in the flow. In that sense, it seems to be the Power of the Dao in each of us, the power of grace and ease rather any kind of power over others or over things. The power that is De is the power of being aligned with nature, not of having power over it. Maybe I like power better than I thought I did.
Anyway, thanks for the response. I'm enjoying reading your "Simple Translation" of Laozi. I think the version above that James posted for our consideration is trying for what you have accomplished. It wants to stay close to the original as the author sees it. You have done that too, but you have put it into clear and easy to understand English. It makes all the difference to me. I'm not distracted by the syntax.
Jim
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jimclatfelter
USA
1026 Posts |
Posted - 12/22/2007 : 3:25:47 PM
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Hi David,
It seems likely that the Daodejing began as oral tradition, much as the old sagas of the Western world did, like the stories of Homer or like Beowulf. The text is full of rhymes and repetitions. The meanings must have been clear to those who recited the text in those days. But written Chinese wasn't as developed then as it is today. Many of the old manuscripts (on silk and bamboo) don't even have punctuation. And they aren't divided into chapters. I think much was lost in the translation from the spoken to the written Daodejing. A play or a movie is more alive than a book. Voices are expressive. Words in a book are flat, unless the author provides some expression in the way the words flow. "Exist, named as mother of all things." That's from the translation that James posted. I suppose it means that "Existence can be named the mother of all things." That only adds two words, but to me it adds flow and clarity. That's just my preference. If you find value in a choppier version, that's all to the good. Maybe James will submit another chapter for us to read. I don't mean to discourage him from doing so. I'm just trying to give my honest opinion and to say how easily I think it can be improved immensely.
Jim
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Edited by - jimclatfelter on 12/22/2007 3:26:20 PM |
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Nina
USA
6392 Posts |
Posted - 12/22/2007 : 6:10:07 PM
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A few thoughts (if I can remember all the cool things you guys said)...
The DDJ was originally called The Laozi. Someone along the way decided to pick out Dao and De to put in the title. Maybe that threw things off a bit as to the importance of De?
Each Chinese character doesn't have to be confined to one English word IMO. Maybe those who read it back in those days didn't see the characters as single "words", but as groups of words?
I agree with Jim as to the way he sees De..... But with a bit of a caveat. I see De as something that's inborn in each of us - the "virtue" of what we naturally are. If we flow with Dao, then we're also flowing with our own De, and reaping all the benefits of those wonderful things that make us who we are. Someone who's connected with their own De would hone and delight in what they naturally have rather than trying to make something of themselves they aren't.
-Nina
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jimclatfelter
USA
1026 Posts |
Posted - 12/22/2007 : 6:21:11 PM
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Hi Nina,
Yes, we're born with De. If we're lucky, it's encouraged in us. What about the word Vitality as a synonym for De? Is that the kind of Virtue you mean? I think I like that word. It's energetic, and so is De a kind of natural energy. It sounds right to me, and it's not judgmental in any way.
Jim |
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Nina
USA
6392 Posts |
Posted - 12/22/2007 : 6:36:06 PM
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I don't know, Jim....... Vitality might work. But I don't think smallinn is feeling much vitality right now, even though his De is in perfect order.
I can't find one word, so I've chosen: "Perfection of the heart". Seems like when you're right with your own heart, De and Dao are in perfect harmony?
-Nina |
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jimclatfelter
USA
1026 Posts |
Posted - 12/22/2007 : 8:01:04 PM
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Since I'm new to the forum, I don't know about smallinn's situation. Speaking for myself, I have found that sometimes when I'm not feeling my best, there is still a kind of vitality and sense of wholeness. That doesn't go away. There is a certain constancy about the Dao in one's life. It's always at work or, perhaps better, in play. I wonder what smallinn would say about De being a kind of vitality.
Jim |
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david
USA
1398 Posts |
Posted - 12/23/2007 : 10:02:48 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by jimclatfelter
Hi David,
It seems likely that the Daodejing began as oral tradition, much as the old sagas of the Western world did, like the stories of Homer or like Beowulf. The text is full of rhymes and repetitions. The meanings must have been clear to those who recited the text in those days. But written Chinese wasn't as developed then as it is today. Many of the old manuscripts (on silk and bamboo) don't even have punctuation. And they aren't divided into chapters. I think much was lost in the translation from the spoken to the written Daodejing. A play or a movie is more alive than a book. Voices are expressive. Words in a book are flat, unless the author provides some expression in the way the words flow. "Exist, named as mother of all things." That's from the translation that James posted. I suppose it means that "Existence can be named the mother of all things." That only adds two words, but to me it adds flow and clarity. That's just my preference. If you find value in a choppier version, that's all to the good. Maybe James will submit another chapter for us to read. I don't mean to discourage him from doing so. I'm just trying to give my honest opinion and to say how easily I think it can be improved immensely.
Jim
yes.. that was my point.. I just didnt' say as clearly  |
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ChiDragon
USA
2863 Posts |
Posted - 12/24/2007 : 6:46:17 PM
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HI..Nina
Sorry...I am back. You are right, this is not my interpretation but I believed this interpretation is the closest to its meaning. I did the translation for the interpretation is because I strongly believed in its authenticity. Otherwise, I wouldn't bother with it.
David, thank you for all the kind words. You are right, the ancient Chinese has no punctuatuions nor chapters. The sentence structures are odd between any languages. If I tried to put it in perfect English, it would be too wordy and all the meanings will be conflated and twisted, like you said.
My purpose here is to introduce the meaning of Chapter 1 of the TTC.
It may be odd, hopefully someone grasp it and put it into the English perspective.
I want to share my understanding with all of you. My understanding is from a book of the composite interpretations of all the native scholars. The author of this book had used inductive and deductive reasonings to finalize the thoughts of the terms that LaoTze used throughout the TTC.
1. dao ke dao, fei chang dao;
2. ming ke ming, fei chang ming.
3. wu, ming tian di zhi shi;
4. you, ming wan wu zhi mu.
5. gu chang wu, yu yi guan qi miao,
6. chang you, yu yi guan qi jiao.
7. ci liang zhe, tong chu er yi ming.
8. tong wei zhi xuan,
9. xuan zhi you xuan,
10. zhong miao zhi men.
In Chapter 1, LaoTze tried to describe Tao. I will go over it line by line. Assuming the punctuations are correct and I believe they are. Thank you for letting me to try it again.
1. dao ke dao, fei chang dao;
2. ming ke ming, fei chang ming.
1. If Tao can be spoken, then, it is not the eternal Tao.
Please note that there are three dao's in the first line. The first and the last dao are Tao itself, Tao is a proper name. The second is a verb, means speak or spoken. This line is self explanatory.
2. If a name can be named, then it is not an eternal name.
What LaoTze is saying: No name is eternal.
The logics combined with lines 1 and 2:Tao is eternal, therefore, it cannot be given a name. If a name is given to Tao, then Tao is not eternal because we are confined by the difinition of line 2; a name is not eternal.
3. wu, ming tian di zhi shi;
4. you, ming wan wu zhi mu.
In line 3, please note that there is a comma after wu.
"Wu" means: don't have. It implies none but it does not mean zero
nor non-exist. "Wu" is a proper name given to Tao at a point in time.
"Tian di" means: heaven and earth = the universe.
Translation of line 3:
"Wu" named Tao at the beginning of heaven and earth.
Interpretation:
At the beginning of the universe, LaoTze called Tao as "Wu". This implies Tao is none-form, none-visible, none-tangible at a point in time(at the beginning of heaven and earth). Therefore, I see NONE is the best word that fits here for the translation.
A lot of people ignored the comma after "Wu."
Then the translation became:
"Wu ming" means: no name, nameless
The translation of line 3 became:
"Nameless is the beginning of heaven and earth."
Line 4. you, ming wan wu zhi mu.
For the same reason, there is a comma after "you"
"You" means: have, does not mean exist, but it implies something that exist. For example, I must have something, in order, to show that something exist. Therefore, when Tao created all things, LaoTze named Tao as "you". Tao is mother nature(mother of all things) because all the things came into being. "You" is in the apparent state of Tao.
in Line 4:"You" is a proper name given to describe Tao at a point in time(all the things had been created).
Translation:"Exist" named Tao as mother of all things.
Interpretation:All the things had been created by Tao, let's name Tao as mother nature now.
Line 4 without the comma;
"You Ming" means:have a name, famous
Translations:
a. Have a name for the mother of all things.
b. Famous for the mother of all things.
Let's look at Lines 5,6 an 7
5. gu chang wu, yu yi guan qi miao,
6. chang you, yu yi guan qi jiao.
7. ci liang zhe, tong chu er yi ming.
Line 5: gu chang wu, yu yi guan qi miao,
"gu" means: therefore, thus
"chang" means: always, eternal
"yu" means: would, desire
"yi" means: take
"guan" means: observe. look
"qi" means: its
"miao" means:subtlety
"wu" is not a proper name here, LoaTze used as an adjective.
All possible translations:
a. Therefore, if Tao is always none, one would obsever its subtlety.
b. Therefore, if Tao is always invisible, one would obsever its subtlety.
c. Therefore, if Tao is always transparent, one would obsever its subtlety.
If the comma was ignored,
"wu yu" means: no desire. without desire
The translaetion of Line 5 would be:
Therefore, always without desire, one observe its subtlety.
Line 6: chang you, yu yi guan qi jiao.
"jiao" means: boundary, limitation
Again, "you" is an adjective here.
All possible translations:
a. If Tao is always have(existed), one would observe its boundary.
b. If Tao is always there, one would observe its boundary.
c. If Tao is always exist, one would observe its boundary.
Without comma in line 6:
"you yu" means: have desire, with desire
Translation of Line 6:
Always with desire, one observe its boundary.
Line 7: ci liang zhe, tong chu er yi ming.
"ci" means: this, these
"liang" means: two, both
"zhe" means: body, thing
"tong" means: same
"chu" means: come out
"yi" different
"ming" means: name
Line 7 is the crucial point of this chapter. It talked the smilarity of two things, "wu" and "you", the two names were given to Tao by LaoTze, so he can say these two are from the same origin. He prepared himself to distinguish the two images of Tao. Thus, at the beginning of the universe, Tao was transparent at the "wu" state.
When all things are created, Tao was mother nature at the "you" state.
Translation of line 7:
These two things, came from the same origin but differ in name.
Interpretation of line 7:
These two things, "Wu" and "You" came from Tao. Both represented Tao with different name at diferent point in time. Hence, at one time is the beginning of the universe; and at another time is after all things are created.
You see how difficult to describe Tao. Now, we all know why? Chapter 1 tells us. If Tao can be spoken, then, it is not the eternal Tao.
ChiDragon |
Edited by - ChiDragon on 12/25/2007 10:59:28 AM |
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david
USA
1398 Posts |
Posted - 12/25/2007 : 08:34:58 AM
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I agree with your treatment of "wu" and "you"; I tend to like a "non-of" construction over non-existence or non-being... although it may seem like a distinction without a difference; it's not quite a void nor a none but one has to use some word! And I've tended to agree with "you" as 'having' something.
I like the placement of the commas in line 5&6 to keep to the construction given in 3&4... I want to rethink this section now...
The only small difference is I like the [Mawangdui Text] choose of 眇， miao3 at the end of line 5 (you use miao4, following the Wang Bi).
The reason is that I see in miao3, being an pictogram of an eye and small, as if in a glance [for the first time]; so I choose to translate that as "... observe it's source" since I do get a strong feeling that the entire section is contrasting the origin and source of Dao (Wu) against the established "boundary" of names and existence (You).
I can feel that your interpretation follows the idea that you don't ever deal with parts as discrete parts but always want to deal with the whole within the parts... which I agree with... |
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jimclatfelter
USA
1026 Posts |
Posted - 12/25/2007 : 10:09:50 AM
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Hello Chi,
I'm glad you're back. For me Laozi has many names for the primary duality that he writes about in many of the verses. Wu and You correspond to the Yin and Yang of Verse 42. So do Nameless and Named. So do the Uncarved Block and the Ten Thousand Things. So do the Visible and the Invisible of this verse. I see all these paired terms as Laozi's way of parsing the Tao, the Now, Awareness, or Presence. Tao is One Presence with two aspects. And it's my Presence, here and now. Laozi's message to me is that I am whole when I see both aspects. De flows when I am whole. Well, my view is beside the point. The points I was trying to make with my first post to you was that (1) I like your interpretation of the text and that (2) it could, with just minor changes, be put into more conventional English. From reading what you just posted, I have to ask you what you mean when you say "All possible translations:" and then give a few examples, do you believe that no other translation is possible?
It seems you're please with the English, so I'll say no more about it. But I do want to give an example of a translation of Chapter 1 that is quite clear even though it uses a very concise style of writing. It's by Stephen Addiss and Stanley Lombardo. I'd like to hear what you and others think of it. I especially like the first two lines, where the middle Tao is retained, and the "lasting" is reserved for line two.
Tao called Tao is not Tao.
Names can name no lasting name.
Nameless: the origin of heaven and earth.
Named: the mother of ten thousand things.
Empty of desire, perceive mystery.
Filled with desire, perceive manifestations.
These have the same source, but different names.
Call them both deep
Deep and again deep:
The gateway to all mystery.
All for now,
Jim
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Edited by - jimclatfelter on 12/25/2007 10:11:30 AM |
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david
USA
1398 Posts |
Posted - 12/25/2007 : 10:20:12 AM
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yes, the middle tao is an interesting touch.
The one thing lost in the first two lines is the original parallel structure... although interestingly enough, a parallel structure is strongly kept in the rest.
I prefer to keep the parallel at the start and might of used something parallel to line 2:
Tao called Tao is no lasting Tao |
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jimclatfelter
USA
1026 Posts |
Posted - 12/25/2007 : 10:55:00 AM
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That's a good point, David, about not losing the parallel structure.
I like the crisp language of it.
Jim |
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ChiDragon
USA
2863 Posts |
Posted - 12/25/2007 : 11:57:56 AM
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Hi...Jim
Thank you. You were right about the ancient Chinese has no punctuations and chapters. Sorry, I gave all the credits to David. David, may I take them back?.....
I said "All possible translations:" is based on the line above. I agree that I should have phrased as "Some possible Translations:". Please keep in mind there is a distinction between interpretation and translation. Therefore, we must do the interpretation before the translation. Not being prossess the desire knowledge of each chapter and the language; it is utterly impossible to do a good translation. My choppy translation was intended to reflect the ancient Chinese. I must use it as a fundamental basis to convey the closest meaning of the language. I am not here to please another language to loose the precision of the original concept.
Jim, please go over my last post objectively again. Since you asked, I will said a few words about the poem you had posted.
"Tao called Tao is not Tao."
The interpretation is: There is Tao. If I called it Tao, then it is not Tao. Since Tao is not Tao, the logic tells me that Tao does not exist. So, what is Tao? Why are we spending all this time discussing Tao while Tao doesn't exit. Hence, the whole meaning of the original idea was lost.
LoaTze said:
Tao can be spoken is not the eternal Tao.
ChiDragon |
Edited by - ChiDragon on 12/25/2007 1:06:58 PM |
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Nina
USA
6392 Posts |
Posted - 12/25/2007 : 1:26:38 PM
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Just a couple of thoughts......
dao ke dao, fei chang dao
Or, in the original:
dao ke dao, fei heng dao
dao = Dao
ke = (which) can be accepted as
dao = Dao
fei = conflicts with, is in opposition to
heng = that which is constantly in motion, changing
dao = Dao
Laozi isn't saying Dao doesn't exist, I think he's just warning against trying to categorize or confine it.
-Nina
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Tao Te Ching, Chapter 1
