| Author |
 Topic  |
|
ChiDragon
USA
2863 Posts |
 Posted - 12/25/2007 : 1:31:37 PM
|
quote:
Originally posted by david
The reason is that I see in miao3, being an pictogram of an eye and small, as if in a glance [for the first time]; so I choose to translate that as "... observe it's source" since I do get a strong feeling that the entire section is contrasting the origin and source of Dao (Wu) against the established "boundary" of names and existence (You).
David, I am glad that we are in synchronization. If I understand you correctly, you treated "Wu" as the source of Dao. May I point out to you that line 7:
"These two from one origin with different name"
These two things are "wu" and "you"; they are not the source.
It says, Dao is the source; "Wu" and "you" came from Tao. If you choose to translate ".......observe its source" for "wu". Then, you would do the same for "you" also?
"Wu" is not the source nor "you" but Dao is. Therefore, one must observe each with different point of view.
ChiDragon |
Edited by - ChiDragon on 12/25/2007 8:42:01 PM |
 |
|
|
ChiDragon
USA
2863 Posts |
Posted - 12/25/2007 : 1:52:47 PM
|
Hello, Nina
Chang and heng both mean eternal or forever
Remember we are using phonetics here. It is true there is another character has the same sound as "heng". Indeed, it means motion but not this one here.
Again "ke" means: may, able to, or possible
"Dao" can be mean:a road, principle, moral, morality, speak, talk
If we combined two characters become a compound word just like English.
In this case "Ke Dao" means:
1. talkable
2. speakable, can be spoken
3. may be described
ChiDragon |
|
|
|
ChiDragon
USA
2863 Posts |
Posted - 12/25/2007 : 2:03:47 PM
|
"fei" means: not
"chang" means: eternal
"fei chang" means: not eternal, not ordinary
"fei ren" means: not human
Please keep in mind putting "fei" in front of a verb will make the verb negative.
ChiDragon |
|
|
|
jimclatfelter
USA
1026 Posts |
Posted - 12/25/2007 : 2:55:07 PM
|
Am I supposed to be seeing Chinese characters in some of these posts? I'm just getting indecipherable symbols. How do I get what is being posted?
Jim |
Edited by - jimclatfelter on 12/25/2007 3:02:38 PM |
|
|
|
Nina
USA
6392 Posts |
Posted - 12/25/2007 : 2:59:46 PM
|
Hi Chi Dragon-
I don't know if you know this or not (UTF-8):
In around 160 BC, there was a taboo on using the character héng 恆 due to respect for the emperor Liu Heng. It was customary for certain Chinese characters to be retired out of respect for the emperor. Thus, the character héng 恆 was replaced by cháng 常. The oldest texts of the Dao De Jing (Mawangdui and Guodian) used both the character héng 恆 and the character cháng 常 in various instances, but the text written by Wang Bi changed it to cháng 常 in all instances.
- Your Dao De Jing by Nina Correa
I seems to me..... Since there were very few characters in existence at the time the earlier DDJ texts were written, there wouldn't have been 2 characters that meant exactly the same thing.
As for fei..... There were 9 characters used in the DDJ to denote negatives. It would have been easier to write bu than fei for non- as there were fewer strokes in bu. I believe each of the 9 negatives had a bit of a different meaning or there wouldn't be a need for all of them.
I don't know much about the modern Chinese language, but I can see how someone who was translating the DDJ with an understanding of modern Chinese wouldn't see these nuances.
Just something to think about.
-Nina
|
|
|
|
Nina
USA
6392 Posts |
Posted - 12/25/2007 : 3:07:25 PM
|
quote:
Originally posted by jimclatfelter
Am I supposed to be seeing Chinese characters in some of these posts? I'm just getting indecipherable symbols. How do I get what is being posted?
Jim
The Chinese characters in my post are in UTF-8 encoding. You should be able to set your browser to read UTF-8. I've explained how to do that somewhere here on the forum...... I'll try to find the thread for you.
-Nina |
|
|
|
jimclatfelter
USA
1026 Posts |
Posted - 12/25/2007 : 3:13:47 PM
|
Hi Chi,
I agree with you and David. It would be better to say: "The Tao called Tao is not the lasting Tao." For me it means that the name Tao is not the real Tao. Words are pointers to existence. They point beyond themselves, yet we can easily get tangled up in words.
You have distinguished between invisible and visible Tao. You even used the word transparent. That's a good term to me. We see through the invisible Tao, which we could call by any number of namessuch as transparency, void, naught, no-thing, emptiness, space, ultimate simplicity. Laozi has many words for it. This chapter says that desires are always directed toward visible or manifest Tao, toward the ten thousand things. When desires are our only concern, we miss the mystery. I think the text is telling us not to ignore the "invisible Tao" or transparency that we see through. When you look in another person's face, do you find yourself face-to-face with that person? Or are you space-to-face? Laozi is pointing out this blending of the transparency (aware space) that we see through and the world of manifest things we look at and sometimes desire. None of this is hidden, and it isn't about words. It's about awareness that includes both the visible and invisible. I think Laozi is telling to look, to live this wholeness, this blending of the invisible infinite and the visible world of things and boundaries. He's pointing out the grand design of consciousness (Tao), of First-Person living.
Well, that's my take on Laozi's meaning. It's so easy and plain to see. That's why I go on about itno doubt too much. Of course I'm very interested in hearing other viewpoints.
Jim
|
|
|
|
ChiDragon
USA
2863 Posts |
Posted - 12/25/2007 : 3:16:19 PM
|
Sorry, Jim
Nina's setup here do not have the Chinese fonts. If you want to see the Chinese characters please go to the web site below:
http://www.edepot.com/taosplitv.html
I am using Big-5.
ChiDragon |
Edited by - ChiDragon on 12/25/2007 7:29:37 PM |
|
|
|
Nina
USA
6392 Posts |
|
|
jimclatfelter
USA
1026 Posts |
Posted - 12/25/2007 : 3:30:27 PM
|
I'm using Firefox. I don't seem to have that font. Maybe I need to download it somewhere. I'll do some research.
Thanks for the leads anyway.
Jim |
|
|
|
Nina
USA
6392 Posts |
Posted - 12/25/2007 : 3:37:15 PM
|
quote:
Originally posted by jimclatfelter
I'm using Firefox. I don't seem to have that font. Maybe I need to download it somewhere. I'll do some research.
Thanks for the leads anyway.
Jim
I'm using Firefox too, Jim.
Click on "View" in the menu bar. Scroll down to "Character Encoding" and you'll see a menu to the right with Unicode (UTF-8). Click on that and your browser will automatically decipher any UTF-8 characters.
I don't know how ChiDragon is posting characters here, but...... ChiDragon - If you set your clipboard to UTF-8 encoding, it should copy and paste the characters as UTF-8. Give it a try?
-Nina
|
|
|
|
Nina
USA
6392 Posts |
Posted - 12/25/2007 : 4:01:35 PM
|
Here's chapter 1 from my book in UTF-8 - the Mawangdui version:
1 道 dào (tao) Dao; Way
2 可 kě (k'o) be willing, consent, permit
3 道 dào (tao) Dao; Way
4 也 yě (yeh) (a pause)
5 非 fēi (fei) in opposition, contradictory (conflicts with); not, wrong
6 恆(恒) héng (heng) consistent, constant, lasting, permanent (motion)
7 道 dào (tao) Dao; Way
8 也 yě (yeh) (a pause)
9 名 míng (ming) a name, title
10 可 kě (k'o) be willing, consent, permit
11 名 míng (ming) a name, title
12 也 yě (yeh) (a pause)
13 非 fēi (fei) in opposition, contradictory (conflicts with); not, wrong
14 恆(恒) héng (heng) consistent, constant, lasting, permanent (motion)
15 名 míng (ming) a name, title
16 也 yě (yeh) (a pause)
17 無名(无名) wúmíng (wu ming) nameless, unknown, undefinable, indescribable
18 萬物(万物) wànwù (wan wu) all living things
19 之 zhī (chih) 's (denotes possesive) his, hers, its, theirs
20 始 shǐ (shih) begin, start
21 也 yě (yeh) (a pause)
22 有名 yǒumíng (yu ming) named, known, defined, described
23 萬物(万物) wànwù (wan wu) all living things
24 之 zhī (chih) 's (denotes possesive) his, hers, its, theirs
25 母 mǔ (mu) mother, source
26 也 yě (yeh) (a pause)
27 故 gù (ku) therefore, cause or reason for
28 恆(恒) héng (heng) consistent, constant, lasting, permanent (motion)
29 無(无) wú (wu) without, none, nothing
30 欲 yù (yü) desires, wishes, wants
31 也 yě (yeh) (a pause)
32 以 yǐ (i) for (using, so as to, as well as, with, because of, by means of)
33 觀(观) guān (kuan) be alert to, observe, contemplate
(motion)
34 其 qí (ch'i) he, she, it, them, that; his, her, its, their
35 眇 miǎo (miao) subtlety, nuances
36 恆(恒) héng (heng) consistent, constant, lasting, permanent
(motion)
37 有 yǒu (yu) to be, to have, there are
38 欲 yù (yü) desires, wishes, wants
39 也 yě (yeh) (a pause)
40 以 yǐ (i) for (using, so as to, as well as, with, because of, by means of)
41 觀(观) guān (kuan) be alert to, observe, contemplate
42 其 qí (ch'i) he, she, it, them, that; his, her, its, their
43 所 suǒ (so) a place, position
44 徼 jiào (chiao) boundary, extent, outcome
45 此 cǐ (tz'u) this, these
46 兩者(两者) liǎngzhě (liang che) both together (both of these as stated above)
47 同 tóng (t'ung) adapt, cause to fit together
48 出 chū (ch'u) emit, go out, issue forth, sprout
49 異名(异名) yìmíng (i ming) different name
50 同 tóng (t'ung) adapt, cause to fit together
51 謂(谓) wèi (wei) speak about, described, called, is said to be
52 玄 xuán (hsüan) profound, enigmatic, mysterious
53 之 zhī (chih) 's (denotes possesive) his, hers, its, theirs
54 又 yòu (yu) again, in addition to
55 玄 xuán (hsüan) profound, enigmatic, mysterious
56 眾(众) zhòng (chung) a group, a crowd, many
57 眇 miǎo (miao) subtlety, nuances
58 之 zhī (chih) 's (denotes possesive) his, hers, its, theirs
59 門(门) mén (men) gate, outer door, entrance
|
|
|
|
jimclatfelter
USA
1026 Posts |
Posted - 12/25/2007 : 5:10:58 PM
|
Hi Nina,
Thanks. I did that just now, but some of the funny marks changed to question marks. At least I can read the pinyin and Wade-Giles now. I don't see Chinese characters. I guess I got that part wrong. I just wonder what the question marks should really be.
Jim |
|
|
|
jimclatfelter
USA
1026 Posts |
Posted - 12/25/2007 : 6:34:35 PM
|
Here's my way of reading the meaning of chapter one. To me, Dao is the absolute presence or awareness that is the essence of first-person conscious life. This is based on chapter one, but the words aren't meant to be even close to a perfect match. But, for me, the meanings match.
When called the Dao, it is not absolute presence
When given a name, it is not absolute presence
All begins in here, where there is no name
And ends out there, with a name for each
Within, one sees the way of no distinction
Without, one sees the way of all division
Two views of a single presence
Entry to wonder
Wonder upon wonder
By 'in here' and 'out there' I mean just that. To find 'out there' just point your finger at the scene you're looking at. To find 'in here' point your finger at your so-called face. What do you see? I see no-thing at all, just empty but aware space, the famous void itself, the Seer. My presence has two views, and if I can see the two as one and at once, I have entered the world of wholeness, of the Compleat Dao, and of great wonder and peace and satisfaction. And why couldn't I see them at once? My seeing begins in here, in the void, and ends out there, in the world of ten thousand things. To me, this is real stuff, not some vapid abstraction. Of course it's a wonder and a mystery. I don't know how or why it's like this. I just see that it is. And I trust it. Grace or De flows from it when I live in conscious awareness of it.
Jim
|
|
|
|
ChiDragon
USA
2863 Posts |
Posted - 12/25/2007 : 8:45:29 PM
|
Nina...
May I see some words on "Wu Wei". Would you please link me to some of your works. Thanks.
ChiDragon |
|
|
|
Nina
USA
6392 Posts |
Posted - 12/25/2007 : 10:16:26 PM
|
I don't really have a set of "works", ChiDragon. Not in the sense of having written anything that makes definitive statements.
My web site does have my translations (with commentaries) of the DDJ and my translation of Zhuangzi, but the main gist of what I do now is to encourage others to ask their own questions and come up with the answers that work best for them.
One of the reasons I like this forum is because it allows for free-flowing...... where each of us can change our minds just as the seasons change and express whatever it is we're feeling at the moment.
I've written a lot here about WuWei and WeiWuWei. For right now I'd have to say I see the concept as becoming a conduit. If we allow what comes from the universe to flow unimpeded through us, then WuWei and WeiWuWei will follow their natural course and there's no reason to try to define or categorize them. But I do enjoy the fact that others feel the need to do that. I guess it's all about whatever journey we find ourselves involved with at the moment?
Thanks for joining us here and sharing your insights. I'm glad you didn't just make that one post and vanish. I did want you to come back.
-Nina
|
|
|
|
bradford
USA
509 Posts |
Posted - 12/25/2007 : 11:20:35 PM
|
As some of you know, I think the key to the first four lines is in how we render ke3. To me it's always seemed sloppy and lazy to render it as ke4, "can" - the author was perfectly familiar with this word, so if he meant can, why didn't he say it? But to get beyond can opens up a whole lot of possibilities, some of which turn the whole mood around and make "eternal" into the thing to be dismissed, not the path actually taken. But I haven't seen many translators try to translate this word properly .
As Nina provided
2 可 kě (k'o) be willing, consent, permit
Or from my own glossary
(to) accept, accommodate, adapt, approve, admit, allow, ask, bear (with), befit, call (for, out, up), consent (to), incite, incur, indicate, invite, permit, prescribe, submit, suit, tolerate, (s, ed, ing); (to be) able, about, acceptable, accommodating, all right, amenable, appropriate, apt, asked, befitting, called (for), calling, competent, conducive, convenient, capable, deserving, due, easy, enough, fit, fitting, friendly, good, inclined, inviting, likely, possible, potential, proper, ready, right, satisfactory, sufficient, suggesting, suitable, suited, welcome, willing, worthy (of, to, for); (that, which) can, could, may, might, should (be); can (then) be; can/may ... be; to need/be worth doing; easily; -able. Subjunctive mood.
Ke3 is sometimes legitimately but more often mistakenly glossed as Ke4 (3320) or Neng2 (4648), both of which imply the power to overcome circumstances rather than the more passive capacity or power to enter, adapt to and incorporate them.
bradford
www.hermetica.info |
|
|
|
david
USA
1398 Posts |
Posted - 12/26/2007 : 08:45:34 AM
|
quote:
Originally posted by ChiDragon
quote:
Originally posted by david
The reason is that I see in miao3, being an pictogram of an eye and small, as if in a glance [for the first time]; so I choose to translate that as "... observe it's source" since I do get a strong feeling that the entire section is contrasting the origin and source of Dao (Wu) against the established "boundary" of names and existence (You).
David, I am glad that we are in synchronization. If I understand you correctly, you treated "Wu" as the source of Dao. May I point out to you that line 7:
"These two from one origin with different name"
These two things are "wu" and "you"; they are not the source.
It says, Dao is the source; "Wu" and "you" came from Tao. If you choose to translate ".......observe its source" for "wu". Then, you would do the same for "you" also?
"Wu" is not the source nor "you" but Dao is. Therefore, one must observe each with different point of view.
ChiDragon
@Chi: yes, I agree: the two arise from the same source. I mistyped my meaning...
@Jim: I can follow your thought and feeling on that rendering.
@Bradford: Always appreciate your stand on "ke" in the opening...
@Nina: Good point.. Wiki says this:
"The Mawang Dui text clearly shows that the original form of line 1 was in fact "fei heng tao" instead of "fei ch'ang tao." The change in the character occurred when "heng" became the name of an emperor.
"Ch'ang" may be accurately translated as "constant" or "unchanging," "unvarying," etc. It was deemed a close equivalent to "heng," which may be accurately translated as "eternal."
|
Edited by - david on 12/26/2007 08:53:57 AM |
|
|
|
ChiDragon
USA
2863 Posts |
Posted - 12/26/2007 : 10:27:54 AM
|
Good morning, friends
Please do not spend so much time on the meaning of one character in a phrase or sentence. A character by itself is confined with its limited definition. When it is putted in a phrase or sentence, its meaning might changed completely depends on the context. Especially we are dealing with ancient Chinese(AC).
Jim pointed out before, AC has no punctuations and no chapters. When dealing with AC, one must have a logical mind. A modern person interpretating AC, first of all, is by placing punctions at the right place. Then, attempt to make an interpretation with the help of logic to determine the meaning which make sense or not. If not, alter the punctions again until a logical conslusion has been reached.
Let me give an example here:
Chapter 1, lines 3 and 4
3. wu ming tian di zhi shi;
4. you ming wan wu zhi mu.
Line 3. wu ming tian di zhi shi;
Direct translation:
No name the beginning of heaven and earth.
It makes no sense.
In English, the gramma is in correct. There is no verb in the phrase.
In AC, sometimes the reader has to add a verb to the phrase to make some sense.
Possible interpretations:
a. wu ming, tian di zhi shi.
No name is the beginning of heaven and earth.
b. wu, ming tian di zhi shi.
No, named the beginning of heaven and earth.
For perfect English:
b1. No, named at the beginning of heaven and earth.
Named who? In the readers mind is Tao since he or she is reading the Tao Te Jing.
b2. No, named Tao at the beginning of heaven and earth.
The reader don't want to call it NO, then call it None.
b3. None, named Tao at the beginning of heaven and earth.
Now the reader has to choose the best logical thought.
a. No name is the beginning of heaven and earth.
b. No, named the beginning of heaven and earth.
b2. No, named Tao at the beginning of heaven and earth.
b3. None, named Tao at the beginning of heaven and earth.
Most people fell for (a)and rephrased as:
a. Nameless is the beginning of heaven and earth.
Is the beginning of heaven and earth nameless? It makes no logical sense.
Note: It is better not to combine two characters at the first attempt. In this case, combined "no name" to nameless. If you do, you will loose the "none name" thought.
One might say:
Since we are reading about Tao. Tao is nameless. Is Tao nameless? No, we called Tao "Tao". Tao is not nameless.
Therefore, the best choice is b3.
b3. None, named Tao at the beginning of heaven and earth.
It makes some sense. However, this sentence may not be perfect, somebody may come along and make some improvments to it.
Line 4. you, ming wan wu zhi mu.
Same principle aplies for line 4.
ChiDragon |
Edited by - ChiDragon on 12/26/2007 10:39:05 AM |
|
|
|
bradford
USA
509 Posts |
Posted - 12/26/2007 : 11:20:27 AM
|
quote:
Originally posted by ChiDragon
Please do not spend so much time on the meaning of one character in a phrase or sentence. ChiDragon
I don't get that. One would think that in a book of only 5000 words every word should be taken seriously. In context of course. But the words were chosen carefully. And we can't just make them mean whatever we want them to mean because that would seem easier to understand.
bradford
www.hermetica.info |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
|
|
Tao Te Ching, Chapter 1
