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ChiDragon
USA
2863 Posts |
 Posted - 12/26/2007 : 11:52:27 AM
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Hi....Bradford
Please explain Wu Wei for me. Thank you in advance.
ChiDragon |
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bradford
USA
509 Posts |
Posted - 12/26/2007 : 12:34:20 PM
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I see wei as "acting" in roughly the sense that actors act,
per-forming, or going through a form. The form of behavior,
the shape that the action will take, is known from the beginning,
and in this sense it can be seen as the opposite of spontaneity.
Wu wei, then, would be not doing that - responding to each moment
more directly or immediately, without the mediation of a form.
bradford
www.hermetica.info |
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jimclatfelter
USA
1026 Posts |
Posted - 12/26/2007 : 4:27:58 PM
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Hi David,
Thanks for saying you followed my thought and feeling with that rendition of chapter one. I appreciate knowing that. Just because it's clear to me doesn't mean I can communicate it well to others, which is really the first step. My only expectation when I share this way of looking at the Daodejing is that some people will understand what I am saying and that some of those may find value in it. I don't care how many. It's not about numbers. If some (even just a few) people are able to see it this way and even find value in it, I'm completely satisfied. If this way of seeing fits with someone's individual De, the way it does with mine, I'm happy to be able to share it. If it doesn't fit, there are many other valuable interpretations on offer.
I think chapter 25 shows this same kind of meaning. I'll see if I can come up with a paraphrase for it also.
Jim
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Makoto
256 Posts |
Posted - 12/26/2007 : 5:30:09 PM
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| ChiDragon, what is your understanding of Wu Wei? |
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Nina
USA
6392 Posts |
Posted - 12/26/2007 : 5:31:13 PM
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Jim- Nice thoughts. I agree with you. The best we can do is share what comes from our hearts and keep an eye out for those who might feel the same way - then we can help each other. As long as someone doesn't say their interpretation of the DDJ is the "only" way it can be interpreted, then we can all have fun.
ChiDragon- I agree with Bradford about exploring the Chinese characters, and I'd go a step further saying exploring the older ways each character was written can be even more exciting and insightful. I spent 3 years delightfully looking through all the characters in the DDJ, and it was really an eye-opener and a lot of fun.
Some people say you don't need to go any further than reading English translations of the DDJ to get the message of it. Others say you can't "get it" unless you get into the Chinese versions. You say there's no need to explore the characters, while Bradford and I feel it does help a lot. Who's right? It seems to me that if whatever method someone chooses brings more happiness into their lives, then that's the right method for them.
David- Wiki is cool, but I've found some really wrong info there at times. Anyone can write anything there they wish. Heng can be translated as "eternal", but I think that word sounds a bit too static. There's more a sense of eternal motion IMO. Here's a bit about the original character:
恆(恒) héng (heng) consistent, constant, lasting, permanent
(motion)
忄 The heart / mind crossing from the beginning to the end, as 舟 a boat does from 二 one bank to the other.
The motion and constancy of life keeps us traveling like a boat, with a seeming destination, but the only constant is the journey itself. A further meaning of héng is extension: a heart / mind that extends in what appears to be opposite directions.
-Nina |
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ChiDragon
USA
2863 Posts |
Posted - 12/26/2007 : 5:47:58 PM
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Thank you both Bradford and Nina, I am sorry about the misunderstanding.
I will say no more.....:D
David...I want to hear from you. You are such a good writer, so eloquent. I love to read your comments. I felt so relax when I am reading those soft spoken words. Do you have any knowledge on Wu Wei. If you do, please amuse me. Thank you.
ChiDragon |
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ChiDragon
USA
2863 Posts |
Posted - 12/26/2007 : 8:26:17 PM
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Hi....Makoto
oops......sorry, I over looked your one line message.
Wu wei is a term patented by LaoTze literately speaking. Since it requires an extensive explanation, I will elaborate it as a new topic in conjunction with Tao Te in the near future. Thanks for asking.
ChiDragon |
Edited by - ChiDragon on 12/27/2007 08:42:47 AM |
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jimclatfelter
USA
1026 Posts |
Posted - 12/27/2007 : 09:05:06 AM
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Hello Chi,
I may have a slightly unconventional view of wu wei, which I'd like to share. And, of course, I want to hear your view and those of the others on the forum as well. If we're going to have a new topic on wu wei, I would like to request that you begin it soon or else allow me or someone else to begin it. I am asking because you say "the near future," and I'm already at the starting gate.
Jim |
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Nina
USA
6392 Posts |
Posted - 12/27/2007 : 09:57:30 AM
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Go for it, Jim!
Chi can join in when he wants, or start a new thread if he prefers.
-Nina
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Ryan
USA
282 Posts |
Posted - 12/27/2007 : 10:38:59 AM
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Thank you for the insight Chi. I look forward to more of your posts.
____________________________
there is more than one way to skin a cat |
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david
USA
1398 Posts |
Posted - 12/27/2007 : 1:35:47 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by ChiDragon
David...Do you have any knowledge on Wu Wei. If you do, please amuse me.
I think there is a bit of both mystery and fascination when one comes to "wu wei". And of course the typical translations of "non-action, non-intervention, effortless action, no action" all fall short since it is a concept meant to be lived out not simply defined.
I often will insert a parenthetical and say: no [unnatural] action.
The personal characteristics would be in the sense of acting/doing without interference [of the mind] or completely on instinct; 'acting freely' (free of distraction, thought, etc); spontaneously.
If one wants to experience it in nature, go outside and feel the wind walking through the branches or the water singing as it moves.
I very much have an affection for both Zen and Daoism, and often get lost in their distinction and then confuse which one did what... a certain 'forgetfulness' occurs... I think this is "applying wu wei to philosophy". A further extension of this is that I prefer Daoism as I don't want to give up my wine nor my wife. :)
Chi, when you said to not take the word so seriously and seek the meaning, to me this is a form of wu wei; the word defines but the meaning is meant to be lived. I think this is "applying wu wei to translation".
So, on some level, "wu wei" is a temporary (since we often cannot sustain it for very long) suspension of thinking and preparation and action without plan; a response within the environment (not just to the environment). On a clinical level, this could be misinterpreted as some sort of dysfunctional behavior. So this is "applying wu wei to avoid psychiatric labels".
I know that some will object to my examples and that's ok, since I was asked for amusement and not correctness... maybe this is yet a loose form of "wu wei". |
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bradford
USA
509 Posts |
Posted - 12/27/2007 : 1:53:07 PM
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For the Wu Wei soup pot, here's my glossary entry for Wei2 (Lots of stuff to not)
wei2 M7059 GSR27a 87+8 02a (to) accomplish, act (as, as if, as though, like, for,
out), achieve, adopt (as), assume (to be), attend, augment, behave (as), be as, become (as), bring
about, cause, conduct, consider (as, to be), constrain, construct, construe (as, to be), create, develop,
do, effect, elaborate (up)on, form, function (as), handle, help, improve, make, manage, manifest,
perform, play the part/role (of), practice, presume, presuppose, produce, reconstruct, regulate, regard
(as), remake, reproduce, restore, serve (as), set up, take (as, to be), take action, work (as), work at;
interfere, meddle (with) (s, ed, ing); (to be) like, (as)(if, though); as if/though it/they was/were;
productive (of); created, developed, formed, made, produced, shaped, turned (as, to be, into); for the
sake of, on behalf of; were, became; as being, as it were, is in being; (a, the) accomplishment,
achievement, action, activity, active part, assumption, behavior, doings, management, performance,
posture, practice, production, pursuit (of), workings; artifice, agenda; interference, meddling; in the
role of; on ... account; take ... action; in order to, on account of, for the sake of, because of; whereby,
wherefore, wherewith; about, as, by, for, of, to (being). To assume a pre-existing form through
which one behaves, to per-form.
bradford
www.hermetica.info |
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ChiDragon
USA
2863 Posts |
Posted - 12/27/2007 : 5:38:39 PM
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Thank You....all
Jim....Please let me hear your slightly unconventional view of wu wei.
Ryan....you welcome.....:)
David....We are in snychronizatiuon again.....BULL'S EYE...:)
So far on the internet, you are the only one that I have encountered that applies the concept of Wu wei. Surprisingly, you did it on me. Thanks. You understand it quite well but just need a little more clarification, then you are home free.
I like your comment:"applying wu wei to translation". You just told everyone to interpret the Tao Te Jing by its natural meaning, not by "you wei" If you know what I mean.
ChiDragon |
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david
USA
1398 Posts |
Posted - 12/28/2007 : 09:11:44 AM
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that's interesting that you said "you wei"; this is really the opposite of "wu wei"; although "wei" might be opposite on purely a word level, on an action/life level "you wei" is better.
My perception of chinese thinking and behavior (pardon the generalization) is that it's usually about action (meaning applied to life) and not words (sounds applied to meaning). To me, this means that meaning/action is primary/superior although not always chronologically first; but words speak of what is to be done or was done in a sense (and i think in a way not carrying the intention of studying it).
Another interest to me is the strong action orientation of chinese (again, over the use of words). And i think of DDJ48, particularly leading up to 'wu wei er bu wei'; where most translate something like; [arriving/practicing/doing] no-action, there is nothing undone. But I think the chinese mind is more inclined towards applying the meaning and will really think as Ta-Kao translates, "By non-action everything can be done" since this is the essence of life; to live (do).
I used to think that the chinese I observed simply followed a confucian style of action; prescribed, orderly, concern for others is greater, etc... but after some time i came to see a thin veil of daoist style of wu wei really at work, which my wife often succinctly states as; "don't think, just do". I think that once one truly sees this in action before their eyes, and then socially surrounding them at every step then the way of "wu wei" IS "doing in everything" as well. It appraoches the Zen moment idea nicely.
So, in reference to another comment given (maybe in another thread), this is why i do support the idea that living in china you will absorb this idea and truly understand it as it surrounds you and then you also begin to do it and will IMO understand the DDJ 'meaning' better (than simply attempting a book understanding in one's home); and i'm trying to use the chinese idea of 'understand' which is shown by living it out not strictly definition useage. Again, there are two issues at work; word definitions and [overall] meaning and i don't want to downplay the former since i have a soft spot for this as well; I'm mostly giving my view of the latter's importance. |
Edited by - david on 12/28/2007 09:14:49 AM |
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ChiDragon
USA
2863 Posts |
Posted - 12/29/2007 : 10:18:54 AM
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Hi..David
A written language is to retain information of an idea. So, it can be retracked later and shared with others. In the case of the DDJ, if one look at it with "wu wei", it means looking at it objectively for its true meaning. If one look at it with "you wei", it is subjectively without the truth.
We should interpret the Tao Te Jing to the full extent of its authenticity. I respect all the people who tried to interpretate the DDJ with a tremendous amount of time and effort. During the course, one copies the translation of another, sometimes add or subtract ideas. Then, later came out with another translation but not the interpretation. There are thousands and thousands of translations on ther internet world. Yes, I respect their effort but I have reservations on the interpetation and the translation.
By reading someone's written expression on the meaning of "wu wei", one can determine how much does the author knows. Some interpretations of "wu wei" are written by a well-know scholar as the way his see it. However, people tend to accept his idea due to the fact that he is a respectable author rather than the authority on the subject matter. I did not see many people understood what "wu wei" means but you do....David.
The Tao Te Jing was written in ancient Chinese. Now a days, not even an ordinary Chinese can interpret it correctly. More so, tanslated the DDJ into another language by a non-native would be more difficult due the cultral diffences and the language barrier. However, mistranslation is tolerable if it was for fun. Using misinterpretation as references is totally unacceptable.
I saw Makoto's comment and sensed his sorrow with discontent. I cry with you....Makoto.
ChiDragon |
Edited by - ChiDragon on 12/30/2007 01:09:10 AM |
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Bai He
USA
117 Posts |
Posted - 01/10/2008 : 1:52:27 PM
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Chi Dragon,
I agree with some of the other comments that it is kindy of choppy. Being a native speaker and reader of Chinese (which I am not) must give you a lot of insight into the words themselves in Chinese. Walking the thin line between accuracy of feeling and accuracy of translation is hard. English and Chinese are so different. What you have written in English if grammatically corrected I think is pretty accurate and clear in terms of my understanding of what Chapter 1 is about. In my opinion, line 8 of your Chapter 1 is not close enough to the DDJ in Chinese.
I see the verse like this-
These two depart from two different names,
Together they are called unfathomable,
Being unfathomable it is profound,....
Bai He
James Clum |
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ChiDragon
USA
2863 Posts |
Posted - 01/10/2008 : 2:17:37 PM
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Bai He...
Thank you very much for your opinion...
Sorry, about the sloppiness of the English. I called that Sino-English to reflect the Chinese part. That is the only way I can put the thoughts together. If I start writting like English, it is going to be very words. Furthermore, the meanings wiil be scrambled, conflated and twisted.
The Chinese is written the same way and conveyed the messeage, according to your precious comments, the Sino-English did the same.
ChiDragon Speaks doesn't know
Tao Te Ching knows does't speak |
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rene
811 Posts |
Posted - 01/10/2008 : 2:25:48 PM
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Small tangent, please excuse the interruption.
Bai He, thanks for finding and bringing this thread to the top. It had been referred to me for reading.
Jim, your question is long past - but for 'de' the english word I find most similar in intent is 'efficacy'.
ChiDragon, I've read through the thread. Everyone has interesting ideas.
I think I'll stay on the porch. 
warm regards
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david
USA
1398 Posts |
Posted - 01/10/2008 : 5:25:00 PM
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I have been looking again at DDJ1, particularly at the few sections that have bothered me for a while... this las section is one of them.
It seems clear to me that the issue of translating hinges around where you place a comma (if at all). What I've see is:
1. ci3 liang3 zhe3 tong2 chu1 er4 yi4 ming2 (no comma) --- Often as "These two are from the same source..."
2. ci3 liang3 zhe3, tong2 chu1 er4 yi4 ming2 (after zhe3) --- Often as "These two:..."
3. ci3 liang3 zhe3 tong2, chu1 er4 yi4 ming2 (after tong2) --- Often as "These two are the same..." AFTER emerging or producing they are different. (I notice alot of native scholars taking this view).
4. ci3 liang3 zhe3 tong2 chu1, er4 yi4 ming2 (after chu1) --- Often as These two come forth/emerge"
Based on my feeling of the entire section and for [parallel] style of the lines (this section is the only section which I previously struggled with in terms of it was the 'odd' line out in my previous way I looked at it)... I prefer #3. It makes sense that the TWO are the same prior to anything occurring; and after some point they separate and are different. |
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jimclatfelter
USA
1026 Posts |
Posted - 01/10/2008 : 5:44:23 PM
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Thanks, Rene, for your De word. I like that Efficacy seems to be related to the functioning of the Dao in individuals, which is at the heart of the meaning of De as I see it now.
Jim
Jim Clatfelter |
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Tao Te Ching, Chapter 1
