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ChiDragon
USA
2870 Posts |
 Posted - 01/10/2008 : 5:49:37 PM
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Hi...David
Let me translate the lines as you have it.
Line2. These two objects, both came out but with different name.
Line3. These two objects are the same, came out but with different name.
Line4. These two odjects both came out, but with different name.
ChiDragon Speaks doesn't know
Tao Te Ching knows does't speak |
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rene
811 Posts |
Posted - 01/10/2008 : 7:02:58 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by jimclatfelter
Thanks, Rene, for your De word. I like that Efficacy seems to be related to the functioning of the Dao in individuals, which is at the heart of the meaning of De as I see it now.
That's part of the reason I like it as well; this is not a static path (-: The more Te in play, the more Efficacy arises. It's not a direct substitution but it's the closest correlation I've found.
Heh, was just thinking about when they changed The Laozi to TaoTeChing.. "The Classic of Tao and Efficacy" has a bit different feel than "The Classic of Tao and Virtue". IMO, of course.
warm regards
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ChiDragon
USA
2870 Posts |
Posted - 04/25/2008 : 9:25:17 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Nina
Hi Chi Dragon-
I don't know if you know this or not (UTF-8):
In around 160 BC, there was a taboo on using the character héng 恆 due to respect for the emperor Liu Heng. It was customary for certain Chinese characters to be retired out of respect for the emperor. Thus, the character héng 恆 was replaced by cháng 常. The oldest texts of the Dao De Jing (Mawangdui and Guodian) used both the character héng 恆 and the character cháng 常 in various instances, but the text written by Wang Bi changed it to cháng 常 in all instances.
- Your Dao De Jing by Nina Correa
I seems to me..... Since there were very few characters in existence at the time the earlier DDJ texts were written, there wouldn't have been 2 characters that meant exactly the same thing.
As for fei..... There were 9 characters used in the DDJ to denote negatives. It would have been easier to write bu than fei for non- as there were fewer strokes in bu. I believe each of the 9 negatives had a bit of a different meaning or there wouldn't be a need for all of them.
I don't know much about the modern Chinese language, but I can see how someone who was translating the DDJ with an understanding of modern Chinese wouldn't see these nuances.
Just something to think about.
-Nina
Hi Nina....
Sorry I took so long to respond. It was in my mind for a long time since I read your comment. Yes, I do aware is a taboo to use the emperor's name, especially put a negative character in front of his name.
Anyway, there is a differnce between "heng" and "cheng"
"Heng" is past to future; eternal.
"Cheng" ia past to present; always, all the time.
In the Han dynasty ruled by the Liu family. They tried to rule with "wu wei," per DDJ.
In the first two lines of LoaTze:
1. dao ke dao, fei heng dao;
2. ming ke ming, fei heng ming.
Due to the respect to emperor Liu Heng, "heng" was changed to "cheng". However, heng is more appropriate for lines 1 and 2 by definition. It was forced to change emperor by Liu heng.
Few words about "fei" and "bu".
"fei" is in a negative sense that implies something is not true.
"bu" is in a sense of not doing.
Examples:
fei ren = not human
fei cheng = not eternal; not normal; not ordinary
"fei" is always applied in front of an adjective or a noun.
bu neng = not possible
bu zuo = not do
bu xing = not allow
"bu" is always applied in front of a verb
ChiDragon Speaks doesn't know
Tao Te Ching knows doesn't speak |
Edited by - ChiDragon on 04/25/2008 9:28:57 PM |
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Nina
USA
6402 Posts |
Posted - 04/26/2008 : 6:21:16 PM
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Thanks for getting back on this, CD.
I agree somewhat with your assessment of heng2 and chang2.
Chang2 refers to what was set down in the past that would be very difficult to change - thus it became an eternal standard. It depicts the banner (or flag) of a nation.
Heng2 shows motion - it depicts a boat traveling from one shore to another. Even though the destination of those in the boat was constant (eternal), new methods had to be used along the way, depending on what situations they came across.
Your descriptions of the negatives is a bit confusing. You're saying bu4 and fei1 mean the same thing, but they're just used in front of a verb or noun? Is that the proper way to use them in the modern language?
Here's an excerpt from my book about their different meanings:
There were nine negatives used in the Dao De Jing, but most translators use the definition for bù "not, does not" for many of them.
不 bù (pu) no, not, don't, doesn't
不可 bùkě (pu k'o) cannot
非 fēi (fei) in opposition, contradictory (conflicts with); not, wrong
弗 fú (fu) won't, not willing to
莫 mò (mo) no one, nothing
亡 wáng (wang) vanish, disappear, flee
未 wèi (wei) has not yet
無(无) wú (wu) without, none, nothing
勿 wù (wu) do not!, must not!
It is important to note the distinction between them and their usage. As examples:
Bù: "He doesn't eat bananas." (He just doesn't eat them.)
Bùkě: "He can't eat bananas." (Possibly he has an allergy to them.)
Fēi: "He is opposed to eating bananas." (He might think bananas are not healthy, or they might give him indigestion.)
Fú: "He's not willing to eat a banana." (There's nothing about a banana that he finds appealing enough to eat one.)
Mò: "There are no bananas." (There just aren't any bananas.)
Wáng: "His bananas have disappeared." (He had some bananas, but they're missing.)
Wèi: "He hasn't yet eaten a banana." (He has never tried one, but he might.)
Wú: "He has no bananas." (There are bananas, but he doesn't have any right now.)
Wù: "Don't eat bananas!" (A warning!) |
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ChiDragon
USA
2870 Posts |
Posted - 04/27/2008 : 11:25:10 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Nina
Thanks for getting back on this, CD.
I agree somewhat with your assessment of heng2 and chang2.
Chang2 refers to what was set down in the past that would be very difficult to change - thus it became an eternal standard. It depicts the banner (or flag) of a nation.
I never heard of that in my culture.
Heng2 shows motion - it depicts a boat traveling from one shore to another. Even though the destination of those in the boat was constant (eternal), new methods had to be used along the way, depending on what situations they came across.
Heng does not show motion.
Heng2 is a differet character then heng. Heng2 is the same character as "zing" with the meaning motion, it pronounced as "xing"
Your descriptions of the negatives is a bit confusing. You're saying bu4 and fei1 mean the same thing, but they're just used in front of a verb or noun? Is that the proper way to use them in the modern language?
Bu and fei are always used the same way in classic and modern language.
Fei is always used in front of a noun.
Bu is alwyas used in front of a verb.
That is the distinction between the two. It is very cleared.
Here's an excerpt from my book about their different meanings:
There were nine negatives used in the Dao De Jing, but most translators use the definition for bù "not, does not" for many of them.
不 bù (pu) no, not, don't, doesn't
不可 bùkě (pu k'o) cannot
非 fēi (fei) in opposition, contradictory (conflicts with); not, wrong
弗 fú (fu) won't, not willing to
莫 mò (mo) no one, nothing
亡 wáng (wang) vanish, disappear, flee
未 wèi (wei) has not yet
無(无) wú (wu) without, none, nothing
勿 wù (wu) do not!, must not!
It is important to note the distinction between them and their usage. As examples:
Bù: "He doesn't eat bananas." (He just doesn't eat them.)
Bùkě: "He can't eat bananas." (Possibly he has an allergy to them.)
Fēi: "He is opposed to eating bananas." (He might think bananas are not healthy, or they might give him indigestion.)
Fú: "He's not willing to eat a banana." (There's nothing about a banana that he finds appealing enough to eat one.)
Mò: "There are no bananas." (There just aren't any bananas.)
Wáng: "His bananas have disappeared." (He had some bananas, but they're missing.)
Wèi: "He hasn't yet eaten a banana." (He has never tried one, but he might.)
Wú: "He has no bananas." (There are bananas, but he doesn't have any right now.)
Wù: "Don't eat bananas!" (A warning!)
The examples given here did not so how they were used. It was given one character then follow by an English sentence. It does not show how they were used in native language with translation. It is very misleading for someone try to apply their usage. Your author may be falmiliar with the language, but he/she did not give good illustrations. IMO, Nina, you are familiar with the meaning of each cahracter, but you are having trouble with the compounded terms.
ChiDragon Speaks doesn't know
Tao Te Ching knows doesn't speak |
Edited by - ChiDragon on 04/27/2008 11:32:53 AM |
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Nina
USA
6402 Posts |
Posted - 04/28/2008 : 6:50:50 PM
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I don't know which heng you're referring to, CD, but this is the one used in the DDJ:
(UTF-8)
恆(恒) héng (heng) consistent, constant, lasting, permanent
忄 The heart / mind crossing from the beginning to the end, as 舟 a boat does from 二 one bank to the other.
The motion and constancy of life keeps us traveling like a boat, with a seeming destination, but the only constant is the journey itself. A further meaning of héng is extension: a heart / mind that extends in what appears to be opposite directions.
According to the I Ching:
Héng, Long Lasting, Duration (Hexagram 32)
"There are two horizontal lines in the ideograph of this gua (hexagram), one at the top and the other at the bottom. These two lines represent the two shores of a river. Between the shores there are two images - a boat on the right, and a heart on the left. Three people are sailing across the river in the boat. In ancient China, crossing a river was not an easy task. An old Chinese saying describes the situation: 'People in the same boat share weal and woe.' Sharing weal and woe means working together in full cooperation with a united purpose - with one heart. For this reason the ancient sage placed a heart beside the boat. Originally, the boat between two shores indicated the distance from this shore to that shore. Later on, the meaning was extended to suggest simply from here to there and, finally, from beginning to end. When the sage drew a heart beside the boat, the meaning was further extended to include everlasting." -Huang
As for chang2:
常 cháng (ch'ang) constant, frequent, often
1-巾 A banner used to head the troops which protects one's 尚 self in one's home. -Wieger
The banner of a nation never changed. It was their national flag. Therefore, it was constantly the same.
"Flags seem to have been in use very much as in the West. The founder of the Chou dynasty marched to the conquest of China carrying, or having carried for him, a yellow axe in the left, and a white flag in the right hand." -Parker
"During the fifth century B.C., when the coast provinces, having separated from the Ts'u suzerainty, were asserting their equality with the orthodox Chinese princes, and two rival 'barbarian' armies were contending for the Shanghai region, one royal scion was indignant when he saw the enemy advance 'with the flag captured in the last battle from his own father the general.' Flags were used, not only to signal movements of troops during the course of battle, but also in the great hunts or battles which were arranged in peace times, not merely for sport, but also in order to prepare soldiers for a military life." -Parker
2-巾A banner which is constantly flying in front of 尚 the headquarters of the general. -Wilder
The banner was the flag of the Empire.
"The entrance to Chinese official yamens is still called 'the shaft gate'; -in fact, the ya was originally a flag, and 'yamen' simply means 'flag gate'." -Parker
quote:
IMO, Nina, you are familiar with the meaning of each cahracter, but you are having trouble with the compounded terms.
Maybe so, CD, but I did a lot of research into compound characters and found that most of them are used in modern Chinese - kind of like the slang we have in the English language today. Can you give me references to an internet source that proves they were used at the time the DDJ or Zhuangzi was written?
Thanks-
Nina
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ChiDragon
USA
2870 Posts |
Posted - 04/29/2008 : 4:36:04 PM
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Hi......Nina
quote:
"The entrance to Chinese official yamens is still called 'the shaft gate'; -in fact, the ya was originally a flag, and 'yamen' simply means 'flag gate'." -Parker�
I was not aware of that "ya" was a flag.
ya is an office of the central government in ancient China.
yamen is equivalent to a federal court.
****************************************************
Maybe so, CD, but
(1)I did a lot of research into compound characters and found that most of them are used in modern Chinese - kind of like the slang we have in the English language today.
(2)Can you give me references to an internet source that proves they were used at the time the DDJ or Zhuangzi was written?
Nina,
Can u give me the site for item (1)
There is no such site for item (2) that I am aware of.
ChiDragon Speaks doesn't know
Tao Te Ching knows doesn't speak |
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Nina
USA
6402 Posts |
Posted - 04/30/2008 : 6:19:22 PM
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Hi CD-
There were some internet sites that included articles about the non-use of many modern Chinese compound characters in the ancient texts that I found when I did my research a few years ago, but they're no longer around. High cost of keeping a site operative I think.
But there are many books written which include professorial notes about the interpretation of the characters used in the ancient texts, and there are very few compound characters the scholars believe were in use at the time. Also, Chinese/English dictionaries written earlier don't reference most of the ones in use today.
Believe me, I really went through every character in the DDJ looking for compound characters that might have been appropriate - checking each character with the one preceding and following it.
-Nina
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rene
811 Posts |
Posted - 06/08/2009 : 9:37:15 PM
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Bumped for reading purposes; comments not anticipated.
warm regards
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Every action, and non-action, is one of simultaneous creation and destruction. Such is the way of Tao. |
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jan
Belgium
120 Posts |
Posted - 06/22/2009 : 11:48:31 PM
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Funny how DDJ1 keeps us busy, isn't it?
I think you find here the core af all philosophy: bewilderment. |
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Twinner
USA
322 Posts |
Posted - 09/03/2009 : 10:15:23 AM
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Wouldn't it be funny to find out that we have been interpreting Tao incorrectly and all along it meant "A pastry with a hole in the middle"?
Man Taoists would love Dunkin' Donuts then.
Aaron
LIfe is simple, we complicate it. |
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Nina
USA
6402 Posts |
Posted - 09/03/2009 : 5:40:46 PM
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Donuts sound good to me, Aaron. I even like the ones without holes. 
One big advantage to you posting in this thread.......
I found that when CD put too many **** across one of his posts, it made the window too wide and threw everything off the right side. So I removed some of them. Rene and I thank you!
You just never know when you're gonna "unwittingly" do something that will bring advantages to others, huh? Nice hearing from you again.
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david
USA
1398 Posts |
Posted - 09/12/2009 : 2:48:06 PM
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Chapter 1 may be the most beat up passage in all world literature... let's not let that stop us from kicking a passage limping on the ground, yes??
Two things I recently came across made me thing of DDJ1.
1. xuan (玄）
This word is quite a mystery... and I meant my feeling, not just it's definition... translated as 'deep', 'mystery', 'mysterious', 'profound', 'dark', 'abstract', etc.. Nobody knows what the hell to call it !! One of my favorite translators, D. Hinton, coined the term 'deep-enigma' for DDJ1... yea, let's just combine them.
I see in DDJ10 it is combined with 'de': 玄德 ok.... maybe we can put the profundity scale further right with this... the mysterious virtue of dao bestowed and propagated down to our most inner entrails.
2. guan (觀)
This word is quite insightful... I guess that is why it is translated as 'see', 'observe', 'behold', 'view'.
But I read somewhere that this is almost like an inner seeing of the intuition.
So here is my conspiracy theory of the day for DDJ1:
It seems the Guodian doesn't mention 'de' (virtue) as much as the received text. But the most prominent text in Guodian for 'de' is DDJ54 where it repeats 5 in consecutive passages... and guess what? Guan repeats in the next 5 consecutive passages.
So I got to looking around more for 'guan'... where do you go in the DDJ... and I find that DDJ16 has 'guan' in almost all the later texts but Guodian used a different word and impression.
Also, DDJ1 has 'guan', but Guodian does not have any DDJ1.
Makes me wonder if a 'guan' theory developed based on 'de'. |
Edited by - david on 09/12/2009 2:49:34 PM |
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bradford
USA
509 Posts |
Posted - 09/12/2009 : 3:19:10 PM
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quote:
2. guan (觀) This word is quite insightful... I guess that is why it is translated as 'see', 'observe', 'behold', 'view'.
But I read somewhere that this is almost like an inner seeing of the intuition.
Some trivia on Guan. This is of course the 20th Hexagram of the Yijing. But it's also the Guan in Guanyin or Kuan Yin, formerly the god but for ages the goddess of compassion. Yin means cries or callings out. Guan here would then imply observing with the ears, so Guanyin might best be translated here as attending or perceiving the cries. It is indeed beholding with more than the eyes.
bradford
www.hermetica.info |
Edited by - bradford on 09/12/2009 3:21:32 PM |
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ChiDragon
USA
2870 Posts |
Posted - 09/12/2009 : 4:05:21 PM
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David...
What a coincidence, I have been contemplating on this chapter lately. Regarding to
1. xuan (玄）
Let me give you some examples here.
1. 玄學: pseudo-science.
2. 玄德: hidden virtue; a commission of a good meaningful act to help someone without acknowledging the person was being helped.
3. guan (觀) in lines 5 and 6 of Chapter 1:
Original classic:
5. 故常無，欲觀其妙
6. 故常有，欲觀其徼
PinYin:
5. gu chang wu, yu yi guan qi miao,
6. chang you, yu yi guan qi jiao.
Sino-English:
5. Thus, always None, would observe its subtlety.
6. Always Exist, would observe its boundary.
Proper English:
5. Thus, if Tao is always invisible, then one would observe for its subtlety.
6. If Tao is always visible, then one would observe for its ultimate.
Annotation:
5. When Tao is always invisible, let's wait for it to see its transition changing from invisible to visible.
6. When Tao is visible, let's observe its action from the beginning to the end.
P.S. David stop drinking 二碢頭. Your head is not thinking straight lately.....
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ChiDragon Speaks doesn't know
Tao Te Ching knows doesn't speak |
Edited by - ChiDragon on 09/12/2009 4:24:04 PM |
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david
USA
1398 Posts |
Posted - 09/12/2009 : 4:47:46 PM
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quote:
[i]Originally posted by ChiDragon[/i]
2. 玄德: hidden virtue; a commission of a good meaningful act to help someone without acknowledging the person was being helped.
I'm glad you mentioned this one... I ran across that in my looking at guan. Quite an interesting combination.
quote:
5. When Tao is always invisible, let's wait for it to see its transition changing from invisible to visible.
6. When Tao is visible, let's observe its action from the beginning to the end.
I'm going move more outside the box, based on today... and your admonition of what I might be drinking !
5. When [the tao-state is] wu, [one can] intuit it's subtlety
6. When [the tao-state is] you, [one can] intuit it's outline
quote:
P.S. David stop drinking 二碢頭. Your head is not thinking straight lately.....
gan bei :)
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ChiDragon Speaks doesn't know
Tao Te Ching knows doesn't speak
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Edited by - david on 09/12/2009 4:48:18 PM |
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ChiDragon
USA
2870 Posts |
Posted - 09/12/2009 : 11:38:17 PM
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gan bei with cheers....
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ChiDragon Speaks doesn't know
Tao Te Ching knows doesn't speak |
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Nina
USA
6402 Posts |
Posted - 09/13/2009 : 5:29:41 PM
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I'm almost afraid to ask this, CD but......
In your translation of these lines......
5. 故常無，欲觀其妙
6. 故常有，欲觀其徼
PinYin:
5. gu chang wu, yu yi guan qi miao,
6. chang you, yu yi guan qi jiao.
Sino-English:
5. Thus, always None, would observe its subtlety.
6. Always Exist, would observe its boundary.
...... you didn't include an English word for 欲 yu?
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david
USA
1398 Posts |
Posted - 09/13/2009 : 5:58:58 PM
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due CD's comma placement, yu is not seen as meaning 'desire';
Wang Bi did not punctuate it that way and therefore the tradition which follows him has translated it as wu-yu 'desireless' (or variant) and you-yu as 'having desire' (or variant).
CD uses 'would'... others who follow this line use all sorts of words which tend to assist the meaning of 'guan'.
If you have Wing-Tsit Chan's commentary, he explains some of this. I just looked, and not a single DDJ on my shelf translates as yu as desires, although I've seen it done in plenty of translations. |
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Nina
USA
6402 Posts |
Posted - 09/13/2009 : 6:04:08 PM
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Thanks, David.
The Mawangdui A and B place 也 ye3 after wu yu and you yu in those lines. How would you translate it written that way?
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Tao Te Ching, Chapter 1
