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ChiDragon
USA
2870 Posts |
 Posted - 09/13/2009 : 6:37:52 PM
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CD uses 'would'... others who follow this line use all sorts of words which tend to assist the meaning of 'guan'.
Thank you David....
I think I explained exactly the same way in earlier thread on Chapter 1. Nina did the same thing to me. She just love to drive me to the walls....
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ChiDragon Speaks doesn't know
Tao Te Ching knows doesn't speak |
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Nina
USA
6402 Posts |
Posted - 09/13/2009 : 6:52:29 PM
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Cool, CD. Tear down the walls! 
Could you tell me how you would translate the Mawangdui A and B of that line like I asked?
Thanks!
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ChiDragon
USA
2870 Posts |
Posted - 09/13/2009 : 6:57:12 PM
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quote:
[i]Originally posted by Nina[/i]
[br]Thanks, David.
The Mawangdui A and B place 也 ye3 after wu yu and you yu in those lines. How would you translate it written that way?
David...
Let me help you with this one....
Nina...
也 ye3 is an auxiliary word used in classic Chinese. It is equivalent to the exclamation mark but proclaiming. I tried very hard to explain that to lienshan once before.
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ChiDragon Speaks doesn't know
Tao Te Ching knows doesn't speak |
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david
USA
1398 Posts |
Posted - 09/13/2009 : 7:12:19 PM
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I've not looked at the MWD structure too much. I wish I had the entire text in a single file... but I looked at parallel usage of some words and while 'wu yu' occurs a few times in LZ, 'you yu' only occurs at DDJ1, which is a chapter not in the GD version. All we see for parallel use is 'wu' and 'you'.
Also I notice that MWD uses 'ye' in DDJ1 as if to define every single line break; but I randomly checked about 12+ chapters and don't see in any of those other chapters. That GD did not have chapter 1 always made me feel it was certain a later creation; that it is possibly one of the very few chapters with 'ye' peppered into every line makes me more suspicious of it's use; whoever came up with that version for chapter one did so very intentionall; as if to 'guide' our thought maybe.
So... I'm not sure I would accept the MWD's version so much since it feels like it's trying to tell us how to translate it. I want to look at some other things I saw when I have time.
but thanks for raising that valid point... I know where your going with it... |
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ChiDragon
USA
2870 Posts |
Posted - 09/13/2009 : 9:30:39 PM
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欲也（yu ye3）！
With ye3 at the end of yu, it puts more emphasis on the yu(desire).
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Tao Te Ching knows doesn't speak |
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Nina
USA
6402 Posts |
Posted - 09/14/2009 : 12:36:28 PM
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This is something even the best scholars haven't been able to agree on. I guess we can't come up with a definitive answer either, and that's okay. It's a matter of preference?
Robert Henricks says:
The possibility of punctuating the text in such a way that "non-being" (wu) and "being" (yu) would be the focus of lines 5 and 6 instead of "without desires" (wu-yu) and "having desires" yu-yu) -- Wing-tsit Chan, for example, has "Therefore let there always be nonbeing, so we may see their subtlety. And let there always be being, so we may see their outcome" -- seems precluded in the Ma-wang-tui texts by the fact that wu-yu and yu-yu are grammatically set off for emphasis.
Wing-Tsit Chan says:
Ho-shang Kung and Wang Pi punctuated the sentences to mean "have desires" and "have no desires." This interrupts the thought of the chapter. Beginning with Wang An-shih's (1021-1086) Lao Tzu chu (Commentary), some scholars have punctuated the two sentences after wu (no) and yu (to be), thus making them to mean "There is always non-being" and "There is always being." ... I prefer Wang's punctuation.
If what Chan says is true - that the idea of punctuating the lines to make wu and you separate ideas first occurred in 1021-1086 - then it seems to me that it might have been highly influenced by the Buddhist concepts of being and non-being.
I really like he fact that Chan said he preferred one over the other, rather than saying one is right and the other is wrong.
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david
USA
1398 Posts |
Posted - 09/14/2009 : 7:52:19 PM
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A few issues I feel:
1. Why does Henricks or others not ask, 'why does DDJ1 have so many 'ye' when that is not the norm'? Was this variation of DDJ1 meant to tell us the meaning from the get go with where to stop a thought or apply an emphasis? Is there an influence on that person who decided to use 'ye' so much... did that person feel this was 'right' to do? It's the same argument as saying buddhism influenced punctuation... someone influenced this usage of 'ye'.
2. To say that the idea of punctuation first started at 1021 is make a comment about when the practice of punctuating started, not when the understanding began. that would be like saying the idea of dao began with LZ since he 'wrote' it first; or that because we only find written history starting with the Shang dynasty, there was not one prior.
3. This emphasis to you-yu still does not answer one question; why this emphasis if that word combination never exists anywhere else in the DDJ? |
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ChiDragon
USA
2870 Posts |
Posted - 09/14/2009 : 11:44:15 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Nina
[br]Cool, CD. Tear down the walls!
Could you tell me how you would translate the Mawangdui A and B of that line like I asked?
Thanks!
Nina...
OK....I took a close look at the MWD-A, MWD-B and GD copies in your DDJ Comparison Chart. If I tell you that ye3 was used as a sentence break or equivalent to a comma, would you believe me....???
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ChiDragon Speaks doesn't know
Tao Te Ching knows doesn't speak |
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Nina
USA
6402 Posts |
Posted - 09/15/2009 : 11:09:01 AM
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Yes, CD, that's the way I understand ye........ as a pause or comma. I'd never heard of it used as an exclamation mark before, and I never viewed it that way.
David-
I never felt the use of ye after youyu placed any special emphasis on it. It's just a place for a pause in the line. Both Mawangdui A and B (which were written by different people) place a ye there.
The character ye was used a lot in the MWD and GD texts. If you look at it in this page of my concordance you'll see a listing of the chapters it appears in for each version:
http://forum.daoisopen.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=132
DDJ 1 doesn't have more than most of the other chapters.
I never said the first idea of punctuation started in 1021. It's obvious both MWD and GD texts included more punctuation (via the use of ye) than the later versions of the DDJ. Makes me wonder why the later versions eliminated ye?
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ChiDragon
USA
2870 Posts |
Posted - 09/15/2009 : 11:29:40 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Nina
1. I'd never heard of it used as an exclamation mark before, and I never viewed it that way.
2. It's obvious both MWD and GD texts included more punctuation (via the use of ye) than the later versions of the DDJ. Makes me wonder why the later versions eliminated ye?
Nina.....
1. Ye was used as an exclamation, only, when someone speaks aloud.
2. Ye used in the whole document was very tedious, that is why it was dropped out in later copies.
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Tao Te Ching knows doesn't speak |
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david
USA
1398 Posts |
Posted - 09/15/2009 : 11:54:21 AM
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To say it is used a lot is not the same as saying it was used al ot in the SAME chapter; that's my point... it's over used in DDJ1 throughout... you don't see that consistently in other chapters.
I agree with CD; a 'ye' after 'yu' puts more emphasis on 'yu'... and not just that but tends to want to compound 'you yu'. If you put a pause on a word, it tends to suggest the last word before the pause is read with the pre-pause words, not those after the pause... in this way, a pause acts as a pseudo punctuation.
Why eliminate 'ye'... I thought I've suggested reasons... mainly that it's inconsistently used across the DDJ by too many sources and it interjects that persons feeling for where emphasis or pause... then decide on the pauses that seem appropriate. Everyone wants their own pause placement. |
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Nina
USA
6402 Posts |
Posted - 09/15/2009 : 3:18:39 PM
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CD-
It was too tedious for them to include the commas? 也 Ye only has 3 strokes. That sounds like a very flimsy explanation, but I guess some people would buy it.
David-
I don't think a comma or pause places more emphasis on the word preceding the comma. In the DDJ, when emphasis is sought, there are a variety of other characters used for that. By eliminating ye, one can interject their own feelings as well.
Okay....... here's the list of where ye appears in The Laozi. Some other chapters have it just as many times. You can count them if you wish. Shall we look for reasons they're wrong in each one as well?
01-04 01-12 01-16 01-21 01-31 01-39 02-07 02-21 02-27 02-33 02-39 02-45 02-51 02-69 02-74 02-83 02-88 03-31 03-50 04-09 04-40 07-18 09-15 09-22 09-29 09-37 10-60 11-13 11-27 11-38 12-39 13-17 14-53 16-04 16-08 16-16 16-35 16-39 17-31 17-41 20-68 21-70 24-27 27-29 27-39 27-71 29-18 29-23 31-07 31-34 31-42 31-52 31-90 32-24 32-57 33-05 33-08 33-13 33-18 33-22 33-27 33-34 33-41 34-08 34-16 34-28 34-51 34-57 35-28 35-40 37-04 38-25 38-34 38-43 38-52 38-86 38-91 38-98 38-103 39-36 39-108 40-02 40-06 40-08 40-13 42-37 43-22 48-16 48-31 49-22 49-35 49-40 50-31 50-73 51-25 51-29 51-37 51-59 51-64 51-69 53-49 55-38 55-46 57-18 58-35 58-47 59-62 60-27 60-34 60-39 61-05 61-12 61-22 61-27 62-06 62-11 62-17 62-60 63-28 64-03 64-06 64-10 64-13 64-16 64-22 64-25 64-32 64-39 64-75 64-81 64-85 64-90 64A-03 64A-06 64A-10 64A-13 64A-16 64A-19 64A-22 64A-25 64A-32 64C-03 64C-06 64C-10 64C-13 64C-16 64C-19 64C-22 64C-25 64C-32 64C-76 64C-82 64C-95 64C-101 65-10 65-15 65-20 65-24 65-32 65-40 65-48 65-66 66-27 66-36 66-45 66-49 66-54 66-58 66-69 67-21 68-42 70-06 70-10 70-17 70-22 70-33 71-18 71-23 72-37 72-44 74-13 75-04 75-19 75-27 75-36 75-42 76-04 76-08 76-16 76-21 76-30 76-36 77-07 77-65 77-73 78-14 78-21 78-26 78-31 78-36 78-41
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david
USA
1398 Posts |
Posted - 09/15/2009 : 4:31:48 PM
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quote:
[i]Originally posted by Nina[/i]
[br]CD-
It was too tedious for them to include the commas? 也 Ye only has 3 strokes. That sounds like a very flimsy explanation, but I guess some people would buy it.
David-
I don't think a comma or pause places more emphasis on the word preceding the comma. In the DDJ, when emphasis is sought, there are a variety of other characters used for that. By eliminating ye, one can interject their own feelings as well.
Okay....... here's the list of where ye appears in The Laozi. Some other chapters have it just as many times. You can count them if you wish. Shall we look for reasons they're wrong in each one as well?
01-04 01-12 01-16 01-21 01-31 01-39 02-07 02-21 02-27 02-33 02-39 02-45 02-51 02-69 02-74 02-83 02-88 03-31 03-50 04-09 04-40 07-18 09-15 09-22 09-29 09-37 10-60 11-13 11-27 11-38 12-39 13-17 14-53 16-04 16-08 16-16 16-35 16-39 17-31 17-41 20-68 21-70 24-27 27-29 27-39 27-71 29-18 29-23 31-07 31-34 31-42 31-52 31-90 32-24 32-57 33-05 33-08 33-13 33-18 33-22 33-27 33-34 33-41 34-08 34-16 34-28 34-51 34-57 35-28 35-40 37-04 38-25 38-34 38-43 38-52 38-86 38-91 38-98 38-103 39-36 39-108 40-02 40-06 40-08 40-13 42-37 43-22 48-16 48-31 49-22 49-35 49-40 50-31 50-73 51-25 51-29 51-37 51-59 51-64 51-69 53-49 55-38 55-46 57-18 58-35 58-47 59-62 60-27 60-34 60-39 61-05 61-12 61-22 61-27 62-06 62-11 62-17 62-60 63-28 64-03 64-06 64-10 64-13 64-16 64-22 64-25 64-32 64-39 64-75 64-81 64-85 64-90 64A-03 64A-06 64A-10 64A-13 64A-16 64A-19 64A-22 64A-25 64A-32 64C-03 64C-06 64C-10 64C-13 64C-16 64C-19 64C-22 64C-25 64C-32 64C-76 64C-82 64C-95 64C-101 65-10 65-15 65-20 65-24 65-32 65-40 65-48 65-66 66-27 66-36 66-45 66-49 66-54 66-58 66-69 67-21 68-42 70-06 70-10 70-17 70-22 70-33 71-18 71-23 72-37 72-44 74-13 75-04 75-19 75-27 75-36 75-42 76-04 76-08 76-16 76-21 76-30 76-36 77-07 77-65 77-73 78-14 78-21 78-26 78-31 78-36 78-41
I'm saying it's normal speech pattern...
you didn't say which version these are from: Are these only from the MWD only?
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why would you want to go through each one looking for reasons they are wrong?
I'm not so interested in who is right or wrong; I'm looking for reasons they might of been put there or removed later, and what influences they might of have or influenced produced later; MWD (author) put them there for some reasons while others did not. |
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ChiDragon
USA
2870 Posts |
Posted - 09/15/2009 : 5:00:09 PM
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Nina....
Three strokes for one sentence is not many, but for the whole book. I did count how many ye's as you have shown, but make a calculation with a rough estimate 15 characters per line.
3 stoke x 15 characters x 13 lines = 585 more strokes per books
Yes, I must say you do have a lot of patience to count the ye's. What fascinates me was that you knew they were commas. Why did you still go through the counts for the purpose of your argument.
Nina: "I don't think a comma or pause places more emphasis on the word preceding the comma."
You are correct 100% here.
Actually, 'ye' places more emphasis on the word preceding the comma was used in the other areas. Modern natives, sometimes, are still using it when they speak to put more emphasis on the verb.
Example for the kind of emphasized expression:
1. I'm coming.
我來了（wo３ lai２ lio3）
2. Here I come.
我來也（wo３ lai２ ye3）
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ChiDragon Speaks doesn't know
Tao Te Ching knows doesn't speak |
Edited by - ChiDragon on 09/15/2009 5:11:39 PM |
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david
USA
1398 Posts |
Posted - 09/15/2009 : 5:29:10 PM
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quote:
[i]Originally posted by Nina[/i]
DDJ 1 doesn't have more than most of the other chapters.
One can do the math pretty much with two hands... but I used a database instead. Without knowing the source of the numbers, are they from one version or a mixed of versions, it's difficult to make too many comments;
1x = 18 chapters
2x = 13 chapters
3x = 5 chapters
4x = 4 chapters
5x = 5 chapters
6x = 3 chapters
7x = 1 chapter
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8x = 4 chapters (DDJ1 is here)
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11x = 1 chapter
13x = 1 chapter (64, took the largest number of 3 variations)
DDJ1 compared to rest:
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27 chapters have no use of 'ye'
49 chapters have fewer use of 'ye'
3 chapters the same
2 have more
Of those 5 chapters at same or higher... all appear to be longer (ie: more characters), other than 64... meaning, more 'ye' in DDJ1 in a short span of characters.
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BTW: Your count of 6 for DDJ1 is wrong; it occurs 8 times in MWD-A... so not sure what other chapter error counts exist. |
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Nina
USA
6402 Posts |
Posted - 09/15/2009 : 5:57:51 PM
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You're right, David. I missed 2 in DDJ 1. Thanks for telling me. I'll have to correct that. I'm so glad I posted that list here, and that you're so kind as to check them for me. Now I'll have to re-check all of them. A new project...... Cool!
I can see what you're saying - about the ratio of ye's being higher in DDJ 1, but that doesn't bother me. I suppose you could check the ratios of other characters in the DDJ and find a reason to say they're used too much in one chapter or another. If you prefer to leave out the ye's that's fine with me. I prefer to leave them in.
At least I provided you with a little project of your own on this issue. Hope it was fun.
Oh...... The ye's in my list is a composite of their usage in all the versions. If you want another fun project, you can go through the Comparison Charts I have on my web site and count which ones came from which versions.
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Nina
USA
6402 Posts |
Posted - 09/15/2009 : 6:09:11 PM
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quote:
[i]Originally posted by ChiDragon[/i]
Yes, I must say you do have a lot of patience to count the ye's. What fascinates me was that you knew they were commas. Why did you still go through the counts for the purpose of your argument.
I guess you haven't explored my web site, CD, and maybe you missed some of the times I mentioned the years I've put into researching The Laozi? I researched all the characters in The Laozi - to the point that I saw them in everything I looked at! No kidding!
I didn't create that list for the purposes of any argument. You're so silly sometimes! That list is included in my book. There's a similar list for each of the characters used in The Laozi in the Dictionary section of my book. I just cut and pasted it into this thread.
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david
USA
1398 Posts |
Posted - 09/15/2009 : 6:35:03 PM
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quote:
[i]Originally posted by Nina[/i]
The ye's in my list is a composite of their usage in all the versions. If you want another fun project, you can go through the Comparison Charts I have on my web site and count which ones came from which versions.
yes.. that's how I found the two missing ones. yes, by version would have been a little more meaningful, but in the end it's too small to probably make any statistical meaning anyways.
thanks for sharing that. |
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ChiDragon
USA
2870 Posts |
Posted - 02/07/2010 : 08:18:41 AM
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Chapter 1
Original classic Chinese
1. 道可道，非常道。
2. 名可名，非常名。
3. 無，名天地之始﹔
4. 有，名萬物之母。
5. 故常無，欲以觀其妙﹔
6. 常有，欲以觀其徼。
7. 此兩者同出而異名，
8. 同謂之玄, 玄之又玄。
9. 眾妙之門。
My initial attempt two years ago:
1. Tao can be spoken is not the eternal Tao.
2. Name can be named is not an eternal name.
3. None, named at the origin of heaven and earth.
4. Exist, named as mother of all things.
5. Thus, always None, would observe its subtlety.
6. Always Exist, would observe its boundary.
7 These two from one origin with different name,
8. Same as mysterious, so mysterious and even more mysterious,
9. The pan mysterious gate.
My second attempt in Sino-English:
1. Tao can be spoken is not the eternal Tao.
2. Name can be named is not an eternal name.
3. None, named at the origin of heaven and earth.
4. Exist, named as mother of all things.
5. Thus, always None, would grok its quale.
6. Always Exist, would observe its boundary.
7 These two from one origin but differ in name,
8. Both regarded mysterious, mysterious and more mysterious,
9. The gate to all mystery.
In comprehensible English:
1. Tao can be spoken is not the eternal Tao.
2. A name can be named is not an eternal name.
3. Invisible was the name giving to Tao at the origin of heaven and earth.
4. Visible was the name giving to Tao as mother of all things.
5. Hence, when Tao is always invisible, one would grok its quale.
6. When Tao is always visible, one would observe its limitation.
7 These two from one origin but differ in name,
8. Both regarded mysterious, mysterious and more mysterious,
9. The gate to all mysteries.
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CD speaks doesn't know.
TTC knows doesn't speak. |
Edited by - ChiDragon on 02/07/2010 08:26:22 AM |
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Nina
USA
6402 Posts |
Posted - 02/07/2010 : 6:17:57 PM
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You know, CD, that I don't agree with your translation but I'll try to help make it more comprehensible in English........
1. Tao that can be spoken is not the eternal Tao.
2. A name that can be named is not an eternal name.
3. Invisible was the name given to Tao at the origin of heaven and earth.
4. Visible was the name given to Tao as the mother of all things.
5. Hence, when Tao is always invisible, one would grok its quale.
6. When Tao is always visible, one would observe its limitation.
7 These two come from one origin but differ in name,
8. Both are regarded as mysterious; mysterious and more mysterious;
9. The gate to all mysteries.
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Tao Te Ching, Chapter 1
