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lienshan
Denmark
655 Posts |
 Posted - 07/28/2010 : 02:32:38 AM
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quote:
[i]Originally posted by Nina[/i]
Don't be such a fuddy-duddy, CD.
I agree with you Nina; it's fuddy-duddy to place the comma after the first characters of the first lines 
while it makes sence placing the comma after the second character of the first lines 
dao4 ke3 ye3 dao4 fei1 heng2 dao4 ye3
ming2 ke3 ye3 ming2 fei1 heng2 ming2 ye3
wu2 ming2 ye3 tian1 di4 zhi1 shi3 ye3
you3 ming2 ye3 wan4 wu4 zhi1 mu3 ye3
gu4 heng2 wu2 yu4 yi3 guan1 qi2 miao4
heng2 you3 yu4 yi3 guan1 qi2 jiao3 ye3
liang3 zhe3 tong2 chu1 yi4 ming2 tong2 wei4
xuan2 zhi1 you4 xuan2 zhong4 miao4 zhi1 men2
The comma is placed after the third character of the first two lines in the Mawangdui versions.
Whether these are original or interpreting is a  |
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ChiDragon
USA
2863 Posts |
Posted - 07/28/2010 : 08:31:43 AM
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lienshan........
FROM WHO AND WHERE DID YOU LEARN YOUR CHINESE LESSONS...????................
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CD speaks doesn't know.
TTC knows doesn't speak. |
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lienshan
Denmark
655 Posts |
Posted - 07/28/2010 : 09:39:08 AM
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quote:
[i]Originally posted by ChiDragon[/i]
CHINESE LESSON
heng2 dao4 = constant Dao or constantly Dao
heng2 ming2 = a constant name or constantly a name
Is heng2 either an adjective or an adverb
The way Laozi uses heng2 later on indicates, that heng2 should be read as an adverb:
heng2 wu2 yu4 = constantly without desire
heng2 you3 yu4 = constantly with desire
Laozi would have indicated, that heng2 should be read as an adjective this way:
wu2 heng2 yu4 = without constant desire
you3 heng2 yu4 = with constant desire
quote:
[i]Originally posted by ChiDragon[/i]
1. Tao that can be spoken is not the eternal Tao.
2. A name that can be named is not an eternal name.
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ChiDragon
USA
2863 Posts |
Posted - 07/28/2010 : 10:26:49 AM
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Another lesson...
If you change the order of the characters, then you have changed the meaning of the text.
wu2 heng2 yu4 = without constant desire
you3 heng2 yu4 = with constant desire
heng2 wu2 yu4 = always have no desire
heng2 you3 yu4 = always have desire
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CD speaks doesn't know.
TTC knows doesn't speak. |
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ChiDragon
USA
2863 Posts |
Posted - 07/28/2010 : 1:32:00 PM
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quote:
[i]Originally posted by lienshan[/i]
[br]quote:
[i]Originally posted by Nina[/i]
Don't be such a fuddy-duddy, CD.
I agree with you Nina; it's fuddy-duddy to place the comma after the first characters of the first lines
while it makes sence placing the comma after the second character of the first lines
dao4 ke3 ye3 dao4 fei1 heng2 dao4 ye3
ming2 ke3 ye3 ming2 fei1 heng2 ming2 ye3
wu2 ming2 ye3 tian1 di4 zhi1 shi3 ye3
you3 ming2 ye3 wan4 wu4 zhi1 mu3 ye3
gu4 heng2 wu2 yu4 yi3 guan1 qi2 miao4
heng2 you3 yu4 yi3 guan1 qi2 jiao3 ye3
liang3 zhe3 tong2 chu1 yi4 ming2 tong2 wei4
xuan2 zhi1 you4 xuan2 zhong4 miao4 zhi1 men2
The comma is placed after the third character of the first two lines in the Mawangdui versions.
Whether these are original or interpreting is a
Commas were placed in MWD-A and B:
道，可道也，非恒道也。
dao4， ke3 dao4 ye3, fei1 heng2 dao4 ye3
Tao, if speakable, not eternal Tao though.
FYI.....
ye3 is not a comma as you thought....
"ke3 dao4 ye3"
The first 'ye3' made "ke3 dao4' an 'if' statement.
The second 'ye3' puts an emphasis on "fei1 heng2 dao4."
PS....
Knowing the meaning or the etymology of the characters does not help to comprehend the contextual meaning of the classic text. This translation requires a little cultural life experience to get to a more advance level.
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CD speaks doesn't know.
TTC knows doesn't speak. |
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Nina
USA
6392 Posts |
Posted - 07/28/2010 : 5:56:58 PM
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quote:
[i]Originally posted by ChiDragon[/i]
Commas were placed in MWD-A and B:
道，可道也，非恒道也。
dao4， ke3 dao4 ye3, fei1 heng2 dao4 ye3
There was no comma after the first dao in that line in the MWD A or B.
MWD A had a mark in these places in that line:
道 可 道 也 < 非 恒 道 也 <
quote:
PS....
Knowing the meaning or the etymology of the characters does not help to comprehend the contextual meaning of the classic text. This translation requires a little cultural life experience to get to a more advance level.
Chinese cultural experiences and modern syntax can be detrimental to getting to the gist of a text written over 2500 years ago. IMO an "advanced level" of understanding is purely subjective.
lienshan-
Yes, it seems obvious to me that 無 wu2 and 有 you3 are adverbs for 欲 yu4.
無 wu2 and 有 you3 are not nouns or adjectives in this chapter.
Now I will be accused of contaminating this thread? |
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ChiDragon
USA
2863 Posts |
Posted - 07/28/2010 : 6:36:30 PM
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道 可 道 也 < 非 恒 道 也 <
The meaning doesn't really change that much. The original thought is still there. It is only a matter of how one wants to say it, emphasize it or write it. Let's not fight over this minute technicality. There is a different level of understanding due to the difference in cultural background. This is as far as I can go with the member in this forum. Thus I'll hold back to a certain degree of accuracy, in future discussions, to reflect the knowledge level of language with each individual...
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CD speaks doesn't know.
TTC knows doesn't speak. |
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ChiDragon
USA
2863 Posts |
Posted - 07/28/2010 : 11:35:04 PM
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Nina: "Now I will be accused of contaminating this thread?"
No, as long as you don't ask me to translate the PinYin downward like lienshan....
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CD speaks doesn't know.
TTC knows doesn't speak. |
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Tao Te Ching, Chapter 1
