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ChiDragon
USA
2836 Posts |
 Posted - 05/17/2008 : 1:03:21 PM
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Chapter 15 Those who devoted to Tao
PinYin
1. gu zhi shan wei shi zhe,
2. wei miao xuan tong,
3. shen bu ke shi.
4. fu wei bu ke shi,
5. gu qiang wei zhi rong:
6. yu xi ruo dong she chuan,
7. you xi ruo wei si lin,
8. yan xi qi ruo rong,
9. huan xi ruo bing zhi jiang shi,
10.dun xi qi ruo pu,
11.kuang xi qi ruo gu,
12.hun xi qi ruo zhuo,
13.dan xi qi ruo hai,
14.liao xi ruo wu zhi.
15.shu neng zhuo yi jing zhi xu qing?
16.shu neng an yi dong zhi xu sheng?
18.bao ci dao zhe bu yu ying.
19.fu wei bu ying,
20.gu neng bi er xin cheng.
Sino-English
1. Ancients who devoted to Tao's principle;
2. Are subtle with extensive wisdom,
3. Abyssal and inscrutable.
4. Since they are inscrutable,
5. Therefore, they were described with reluctance as:
6. Cautious as in winter stepping on river,
7. Vigilant as being four-way ambused,
8. Punctilious as a guest,
9. Harmonious as thawing ice,
10.Primitive as raw stock,
11.Vasty as valley in the mountain,
12.Confused as turbid water,
13.Quiet as deep sea,
14.Drifting as non stop,
15.Who can from chaos settled with calmness?
16.Who can from peacefulness motivated to move forward?
17.Those who kept Tao's principle,
18.Being not contented,
19.Because of being not contented,
20.Therefore, can discard the obsolete for renewal.
ChiDragon Speaks doesn't know
Tao Te Ching knows doesn't speak |
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Nina
USA
6376 Posts |
Posted - 05/19/2008 : 6:20:10 PM
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(UTF-8)
Chapter 15
(Guodian - Characters 1-13, 18-50, 56-86)
1 古 gǔ (ku) age-old, from the past, handed down
2 之 zhī (chih) 's (denotes possesive) his, hers, its, theirs
3 善 shàn (shan) good, sweet, pleasant; good at (doing something)
4 為(为) wéi (wei) to act, to do, to become
5 士 shì (shih) scholar
6 者 zhě (che) one who..., -er (a suffix)
7 必 bì (pi) must, certainly, necessary (what simply has to be done)
8 微妙 wēimiào (wei miao) subtlely wonderful
9 玄 xuán (hsüan) profound, enigmatic, mysterious
10 達(达) dá (ta) reach, open, see through, attain
11 深 shēn (shen) penetrating, inquiring into
12 不可 bùkě (pu k'o) cannot
13 志 zhì (chih) will, volition, determination of the heart
<
14 夫 fū (fu) initial particle (adjective, preposition, conjunction, adverb.)
15 唯 wéi (wei) only, solely
16 不可 bùkě (pu k'o) cannot
17 識(识) shí (shih) knowledge, understanding
18 是 shì (shih) what is by nature right and correct
19 以 yǐ (i) for (using, so as to, as well as, with, because of, by means of)
20 為(为) wéi (wei) to act, to do, to become
21 之 zhī (chih) 's (denotes possesive) his, hers, its, theirs
22 頌(颂) sòng (sung) appreciate, respect
<
23 豫 yù (yü) hesitant
24 乎? hū (hu) ? (a question mark) (used as a suffix)
25 如 rú (ju) as if, like, in accordance with
26 冬 dōng (tung) winter
27 涉 shè (she) wade, cross over, ford
28 川 chuān (ch'uan) streams
<
29 猷 yóu (yu) deliberating, undecided
30 乎? hū (hu) ? (a question mark) (used as a suffix)
31 其 qí (ch'i) he, she, it, them, that; his, her, its, their
32 如 rú (ju) as if, like, in accordance with
33 思 sī (ssu) to think of, consider
34 四鄰(四邻) sìlín (ssu lin) one's near neighbors
<
35 嚴(严) yán (yen) strict, severe, grave, stern
36 乎? hū (hu) ? (a question mark) (used as a suffix)
37 其 qí (ch'i) he, she, it, them, that; his, her, its, their
38 如 rú (ju) as if, like, in accordance with
39 客 kè (k'o) guest, traveler
<
40 渙(涣) huàn (huan) dispersion, disolution
41 乎? hū (hu) ? (a question mark) (used as a suffix)
42 其 qí (ch'i) he, she, it, them, that; his, her, its, their
43 如 rú (ju) as if, like, in accordance with
44 冰 bīng (ping) frozen water, ice
45 澤(泽) zé (tse) melting
<
46 屯 tún (t'un) genuine, natural
47 乎? hū (hu) ? (a question mark) (used as a suffix)
48 其 qí (ch'i) he, she, it, them, that; his, her, its, their
49 如 rú (ju) as if, like, in accordance with
50 樸(朴) pǔ (p'u) simple, plain, ordinary ("the uncarved block", "uncut jade")
<
51 曠(旷) kuàng (k'uang) a large empty space
52 呵! hē (ho) breathe out, sigh, (ah!, oh!, whew!)
53 其 qí (ch'i) he, she, it, them, that; his, her, its, their
54 如 rú (ju) as if, like, in accordance with
55 谷 gǔ (ku) valley, ravine, hollow
56 沌 dùn (t'un) confused, disoriented
57 乎? hū (hu) ? (a question mark) (used as a suffix)
58 其 qí (ch'i) he, she, it, them, that; his, her, its, their
59 如 rú (ju) as if, like, in accordance with
60 濁(浊) zhuó (cho) muddy, murky
<
61 孰 shú (shu) who, which one?
62 能 néng (neng) can, has the ability to
63 濁(浊) zhuó (cho) muddy, murky
64 以 yǐ (i) for (using, so as to, as well as, with, because of, by means of),
65 靜(静) jìng (ching) quiet, still, calm
66 者 zhě (che) one who..., -er (a suffix)
67 將(将) jiāng (chiang) begin to, become, is changed
68 徐 xú (hsü) sedate, dignified, reserved, slowly
69 清? qīng (ch'ing) pure, honest, clear?
<
70 孰 shú (shu) who, which one?
71 能 néng (neng) can, has the ability to
72 安 ān (nan) peaceful (safe from harm)
73 以 yǐ (i) for (using, so as to, as well as, with, because of, by means of),
74 動(动) dòng (tung) to move, to change the position of, to displace
75 者 zhě (che) one who..., -er (a suffix)
76 將(将) jiāng (chiang) begin to, become, is changed
77 徐 xú (hsü) sedate, dignified, reserved, slowly
78 生? shēng (sheng) life, to live and grow, produce life?
79 保 bǎo (pao) protect, keep safe (as one would care for a child)
80 此 cǐ (tz'u) this, these
81 道 dào (tao) Dao; Way
82 者 zhě (che) one who..., -er (a suffix)
83 不 bù (pu) no, not, don't, doesn't
84 欲 yù (yü) desires, wishes, wants
85 尚 shàng (shang) add to; still, yet; elevated
86 盈 yíng (ying) fill up, load up.
87 夫 fú (fu) initial particle (adjective, preposition, conjunction, adverb.)
88 唯 wéi (wei) only, solely
89 不 bù (pu) no, not, don't, doesn't
90 欲 yù (yü) desires, wishes, wants
91 盈 yíng (ying) fill up, load up
92 是 shì (shih) what is by nature right and correct
93 以 yǐ (i) for (using, so as to, as well as, with, because of, by means of)
94 能 néng (neng) can, has the ability to
95 敝 bì (pi) tattered, worn out, of no further use
96 而 ér (erh) and, yet, but
97 不 bù (pu) no, not, don't, doesn't
98 成 chéng (ch'eng) finish, accomplish, succeed (grow, prosper, attain)
Those in the past who were good at becoming scholarly had to find something subtly wonderful in what was enigmatic.
They tried to reach out and inquire into what couldn't be understood.
So, it was only in what they couldn't understand that they found a correct way of showing respect.
Hesitating? They walked as though they were crossing a stream in winter.
Undecided? They seemed as if in fear of their own neighbors.
Serious? They appeared as though they were guests.
Dissolving? They were like ice melting.
Natural? They appeared simple.
Like a vast empty space! They were as open as a valley.
Confused? They appeared muddy.
Who has the ability to be muddy then calmly wait to change slowly into clarity?
Who has the ability to be peaceful then move to change slowly into growth?
Safe were these Daoists who didn't desire to become filled to the brim.
You see, it was only because they didn't desire to be filled to the brim that they naturally acquired the ability to become weary and not accomplish their goals.
Commentary:
15 ~ Does anyone have answers?
Since the beginning of time, people have tried to find answers to every question imaginable. We've become used to learning about so many things in school, yet the basic questions about how each of our minds work remains unfathomable. Psychiatrists and philosophers have proposed thousands of theories about the human mind, but most of the time they just cause more confusion. If one of them is right, then the other must be wrong? How do we know which one to believe?
-Those in the past who were good at becoming scholarly had to find something subtly wonderful in what was enigmatic.
-They tried to reach out and inquire into what couldn't be understood.
-So, it was only in what they couldn't understand that they found a correct way of showing respect.
Scholars are trained to find answers for everything. As anyone who's been a student knows, teachers and professors encourage finding answers. Laozi suggests that the best scholars were those who enjoyed finding something they couldn't understand. Instead of getting frustrated that the answer eluded them, they were able to show respect for what was beyond their intellectual capabilities.
-Hesitating? They walked as though they were crossing a stream in winter.
-Undecided? They seemed as if in fear of their own neighbors.
-Serious? They appeared as though they were guests.
-Dissolving? They were like ice melting.
-Natural? They appeared simple.
If you really can't understand something, it might be better to be hesitant rather than claiming to know; to be unsure about trusting the answers others might come up with; to be gracious as though you've been given a great gift; to be willing to let go of your own opinions; to just accept the fact that you're ignorant. That's not easy to do. We've been taught that it's much better to pretend you know something than to admit you're muddled.
-Like a vast empty space! They were as open as a valley.
-Confused? They appeared muddy.
-Who has the ability to be muddy then calmly wait to change slowly into clarity?
-Who has the ability to be peaceful then move to change slowly into growth?
The only way to see clearly is to accept uncertainty. The only way to grow is to provide a fertile field. When we come upon something we don't understand, our immediate reaction is to try to get some sort of understanding as quickly as possible. It's like our minds can't rest until we've solved the riddle. It's okay to be confused. If you can't see something because it's dark and you don't have a flashlight, it eventually becomes clear after the sun rises. Then you look at it, and wonder how you couldn't have recognized it before. Things change slowly - patience is a wonderful asset.
-Safe were these Daoists who didn't desire to become filled to the brim.
-You see, it was only because they didn't desire to be filled to the brim that they naturally acquired the ability to become weary and not accomplish their goals.
If you're determined to find concrete answers, then you'll become so full of pre-conceptions that there will be no room for new understandings to arise. It can be much more fulfilling to watch things unfold on their own than to be wrapped up in your own smug answers.
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ChiDragon
USA
2836 Posts |
Posted - 05/20/2008 : 11:31:55 AM
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1. Ancients who devoted to Tao's principle;
2. Are subtle with extensive wisdom,
3. Abyssal and inscrutable.
Interpretation of lines 1 to 3:
The ancients those who are devoted to the Tao's principle are subtle, sophisticated, abyssal and incrutable.
Since they are inscrutable, therefore, they were described by others as:
1. They are precautious as stepping on icy river in the winter,
2. They are vigilant as being prepared for an ambushed from four directions,
3. Punctilious as being a guest to be polited to the host,
4. Harmonious as thawing ice to blend in with society,
5. Primitive as raw stock,
6. Vasty as valley in the mountain,
7. Confused as turbid water,
8. Quiet as deep sea,
9. Drifting as non stop,
10.Who can from chaos settled with calmness?
11.Who can from peacefulness motivated to move forward?
Those who followed Tao's principle are not contented. Because of being not contented, therefore, their hearts are open for new changes.
ChiDragon Speaks doesn't know
Tao Te Ching knows doesn't speak |
Edited by - ChiDragon on 05/20/2008 11:39:00 AM |
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Makoto
256 Posts |
Posted - 05/21/2008 : 12:53:36 PM
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| You are both way off in your translations of this chapter, I strongly suggest you find a true teacher, if you can. |
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mu-tiger
Zimbabwe
2852 Posts |
Posted - 05/21/2008 : 4:17:52 PM
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makoto,
are you familiar with ancient chinese? Would you be willing to post your translation here?
Thanks.
"All my base r belong to us."
Lurk moar |
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Nina
USA
6376 Posts |
Posted - 05/21/2008 : 6:33:08 PM
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Nice try, Mu, but I don't think Makoto is going to be forthcoming with any of the "truths" he/she finds in the DDJ.
Some people think they know but expect you to do all the work yourself, then will say "Now, you've got it!" Got what???? That's the question, huh? If we get what they deem to be appropriate, that's the only way to find out how they feel. Weird.
-Nina
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mu-tiger
Zimbabwe
2852 Posts |
Posted - 05/21/2008 : 9:02:16 PM
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*shrug*
i was just curious. if i had time i'd add ancient chinese to my list of hobbies, perhaps; as it is, i don't have time enough for the ones i do have. Trouble is, i like to make up my own mind; that leaves a huge blind spot. But o well, i'll keep having no purpose...seems to be the only thing i do as naturally as breathe, anyhow. 
"All my base r belong to us."
Lurk moar |
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Nina
USA
6376 Posts |
Posted - 05/21/2008 : 9:31:29 PM
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Oh, Mu, you have a purpose. You delight me! 
I don't think I've ever come across someone who's as intelligent as you are and at the same time can come up with such raw homey stuff. You're a treasure for sure.
Maybe our purpose is.... Jammin'
-Nina
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mu-tiger
Zimbabwe
2852 Posts |
Posted - 05/21/2008 : 9:42:56 PM
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thank you for your kindness, Nina. i trust you know you also delight me. Thank you for that.
i must ask though, how you mean 'homey' in this context? thug? down home? warm and comforting and thus home-like (yeah, RIGHT! lololol!)
Just curious, not sure how this word is meant in this context. heheh.
"All my base r belong to us."
Lurk moar |
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bradford
USA
509 Posts |
Posted - 05/21/2008 : 10:18:53 PM
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There were some really challenging sentences in this one.
Dao is not mentioned in the first sentence except in the
Fuyi redaction and the MWDb ms
15 The ancient gentleman who were skilled at practice
b Were subtle & mysterious, profound & penetrating
c A depth not easy to fathom
d Inasmuch as they were not easy to fathom
e It is thus an effort to construct their appearance
f So ready -
g As if fording a stream in winter
h So vigilant -
i As if wary of (all) four neighbors
j So dignified -
k As though they were guests
l So relenting -
m Like ice which is about to melt
n So artless -
o As though they were of unworked wood
p So expansive -
q As though they were watersheds
r So intermingled -
s As though they were turbid streams
t Who is able, (as) a turbid stream, to become still
and arrive by degrees at clarity?
u Who is able, at peace, to become energetic
and arrive by degrees at lasting vitality?
v Whoever preserves this path
w Not longing for more than fullness
x Only those not overfull
y Can then stay obscure
and not begin to be finished
bradford
www.hermetica.info |
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Nina
USA
6376 Posts |
Posted - 05/23/2008 : 6:02:52 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by mu-tiger
thank you for your kindness, Nina. i trust you know you also delight me. Thank you for that.
i must ask though, how you mean 'homey' in this context? thug? down home? warm and comforting and thus home-like (yeah, RIGHT! lololol!)
Just curious, not sure how this word is meant in this context. heheh.
"All my base r belong to us."
Lurk moar
I'm glad I delight you, Mu. It's nice to find when the symbiosis occurs.
What I meant by "homey" was in the hood vernacular. Like how easily you assimilate any understand the hip hop lyrics. Then can turn around and talk about intellectual things like physics - both are way over my head!
-Nina
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mu-tiger
Zimbabwe
2852 Posts |
Posted - 05/24/2008 : 03:58:50 AM
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Lol. Thanks for the clarification. You know how i do that, Nina? Well, lemme just give you a video and some lyrics.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=gbEwHJX95QE
http://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/atmosphere/tryingtofindabalance.html
'In the days of kings and queens, i was a jester!
they treat me like a god, o they treat me like a leper.
You see me move back and forth between both --
i'm trying to find a balance, i'm trying to find a balance...'
i don't really 'fit in' anywhere. Blessing and bane, depending on my mood. Mostly it's neither. Bane when i feel small, alone, seperate. Blessing when i feel one, and move in and out of circles in which i neither belong, nor have a desire to belong, but wander through as an experience.
"We own nothing, nothing is ours,
not even love so fierce
it burns like baby stars; but this poverty is our
greatest gift,
the weightlessness of us
as things around begin to shift..."
InDiGo GiRlS
Lurk moar |
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mu-tiger
Zimbabwe
2852 Posts |
Posted - 05/24/2008 : 06:39:30 AM
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PS:
Another great quote i remember from my youth:
It is a long baptism into the sea of humankind, my daughter. Better immersion than to live untouched. - Tillie Olsen
Heh. My life can be summed up in boring cliches...not so boring when you have the wherewithall to experience em. i guess cliches are cliche for a reason, eh? and no wonder so many are contradictory...there is yin and there is yang; and the twain meet, right here, right now, this moment. Life is grand.
"We own nothing, nothing is ours,
not even love so fierce
it burns like baby stars; but this poverty is our
greatest gift,
the weightlessness of us
as things around begin to shift..."
InDiGo GiRlS
Lurk moar |
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ChiDragon
USA
2836 Posts |
Posted - 05/24/2008 : 10:01:27 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by bradford
There were some really challenging sentences in this one.
Dao is not mentioned in the first sentence except in the
Fuyi redaction and the MWDb ms
Yes bradford, there are two versions of line 1:
Wang Bi version:
1. gu zhi shan wei shi zhe,
MWDb version:
1. gu zhi shan wei Tao zhe,
Interpretation:
The ancients who were the practioners of Tao's principles.
I over looked the PinYin section. I have three sources to work with. Two of my sources used Tao in line 1. Indeed, the MWDb version was considered to be more close to the ancient meaning; where shi(scholar) was replaced with Tao.
ChiDragon Speaks doesn't know
Tao Te Ching knows doesn't speak |
Edited by - ChiDragon on 05/24/2008 10:15:12 AM |
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bradford
USA
509 Posts |
Posted - 05/24/2008 : 11:26:35 AM
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quote:
[i]Originally posted by ChiDragon
I over looked the PinYin section. I have three sources to work with.
If you were making use of Sister Nina's useful work (Text Comparisons), available free here, you could be working with seven versions: Wang Bi, Heshang Gong, Fuyi, MWDa, MWDb, the Guodian and Nina's YDDJ redaction. My matrix has an eighth. All in Pinyin and Traditional characters.
bradford
www.hermetica.info |
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ChiDragon
USA
2836 Posts |
Posted - 05/24/2008 : 12:11:48 PM
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quote:
If you were making use of Sister Nina's useful work (Text Comparisons), available free here, you could be working with seven versions: Wang Bi, Heshang Gong, Fuyi, MWDa, MWDb, the Guodian and Nina's YDDJ redaction. My matrix has an eighth. All in Pinyin and Traditional characters.
bradford
www.hermetica.info
I know but my main reference had considered all of them and interpreted with a more meaningful composite version. I just used the PinYin version here as a guide. Next time I will look it carefully. Thanks
ChiDragon Speaks doesn't know
Tao Te Ching knows doesn't speak |
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mu-tiger
Zimbabwe
2852 Posts |
Posted - 05/24/2008 : 8:50:24 PM
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Hey CD, maybe you can share how you apply this to your life and what does/doesn't work for you, with it.
"We own nothing, nothing is ours,
not even love so fierce
it burns like baby stars; but this poverty is our
greatest gift,
the weightlessness of us
as things around begin to shift..."
InDiGo GiRlS
Lurk moar |
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ChiDragon
USA
2836 Posts |
Posted - 05/25/2008 : 12:37:11 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by mu-tiger
Hey CD, maybe you can share how you apply this to your life and what does/doesn't work for you, with it.
"We own nothing, nothing is ours,
not even love so fierce
it burns like baby stars; but this poverty is our
greatest gift,
the weightlessness of us
as things around begin to shift..."
InDiGo GiRlS
Lurk moar
Chapter 20: Lines
14. But seems only I'm in deficit.
"We own nothing, nothing is ours,"
19. Only I'm that simple and primitive.
"but this poverty is our greatest gift,"
23.Because I valued ate from Mother.
"the weightlessness of us as things around begin to shift..."
I will flow naturally with mother nature.
I rather own nothing and due away with my financial burden. Since I am in the rat race, I will keep every burden to a minimum to lighten my load.
5. Things people fear, cannot be not feared.
Love so fierce it burns like baby stars; I will try to minimize the burning pain by accomplish something to ease the mind.
ChiDragon Speaks doesn't know
Tao Te Ching knows doesn't speak |
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mu-tiger
Zimbabwe
2852 Posts |
Posted - 05/25/2008 : 10:26:42 PM
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heya CD; actually that's how i apply those lyrics to my life, too. Thanks for sharing that. What i'd like to ask everyone, beginning with you, is how you apply this chapter to daily life, chapter 15. i apologize for not being clearer.
Thanks for sharing yourself here. i appreciate your commentary of the lyrics. It makes sense. i don't think that hard about it, unless i'm trying to own something i have no business owning; but in the end, we don't own anything and if we live to serve things, as smallinn pointed out, soon, they own us.
"We own nothing, nothing is ours,
not even love so fierce
it burns like baby stars; but this poverty is our
greatest gift,
the weightlessness of us
as things around begin to shift..."
InDiGo GiRlS
Lurk moar |
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ChiDragon
USA
2836 Posts |
Posted - 05/26/2008 : 11:19:11 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by mu-tiger
heya CD; actually that's how i apply those lyrics to my life, too. Thanks for sharing that. What i'd like to ask everyone, beginning with you, is how you apply this chapter to daily life, chapter 15.
MU...thank you for your kind words.
Here are the clues how we apply in our daily lives.
6. Cautious as in winter stepping on river,
In winter, the water is icy in the river. One would across the river very carefully to prevent a fall into the water. Thus, this tells us to be careful of what we do to prevent any downfall.
7. Vigilant as being four-way ambushed,
Be alert, anyone around you can hurt you.
8. Punctilious as a guest,
One should be nice, humble and polite to others and treat people with respect; and try not to offend anyone.
9. Harmonious as thawing ice,
Try to blend in with your crowd and society.
10.Primitive as raw stock,
Try not to be someone else but your own self. This also applies to make life as simple as possible.
11.Vasty as valley in the mountain,
Open your heart as wide as the valley to view things and accept others.
12.Confused as turbid water,
Be naive and innocent as turbid water so there is no nefarious thouhgt in your mind.
13.Quiet as deep sea,
14.Drifting as non stop,
Stay calm and cool forever, as the quiet sea, when problem arise.
15.Who can from chaos settled with calmness?
16.Who can from peacefulness motivated to move forward?
17.Those who kept Tao's principle,
18.Being not contented,
19.Because of being not contented,
20.Therefore, can discard the obsolete for renewal.
Who can do all the above? By knowing the principles above and not being contented, one will be able to adapt new changes.
ChiDragon Speaks doesn't know
Tao Te Ching knows doesn't speak |
Edited by - ChiDragon on 05/26/2008 11:25:36 AM |
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Makoto
256 Posts |
Posted - 05/26/2008 : 1:04:54 PM
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Chi, it's your turn to set of the Crap - o - Meter.
Have you ever had a Dao teacher??????????
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Chapter 15 Description of Those Who Devoted To Tao
