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Nina
USA
6376 Posts |
 Posted - 06/18/2005 : 5:50:54 PM
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I realize that some new members might get lost in the other sections of this forum. There's so much info, and it can really be confusing.
So, if you're trying to find out what Daoism is, and have any questions about it, please feel free to post them here. I promise we won't give you one-line answers that might make you wonder why you asked in the first place.
You can ask about anything - and you might even teach the rest of us a thing or two.
We're all just people working our way through this life and trying to make connections.
With love-
Nina
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quirky
Australia
12 Posts |
Posted - 06/25/2005 : 05:05:19 AM
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Is Daoism a way we can "chose" to live our life, and do so, even if you are comfortable with the thought that life is empty and meaningless?
I am so glad to find these forums,sorry I have not participated yet,am enjoying all the banter.
love quirky. |
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Nina
USA
6376 Posts |
Posted - 06/25/2005 : 09:38:03 AM
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Hi quirky-
Thanks for joining us! It's always nice to get new perspectives, and I hope you'll share your own.
The question you asked deals more with personal opinions than with specific aspects of Daoism, but I'll give my own opinion.
We all make choices in life. Even choosing to connect with Dao is a choice. The Dao De Jing chapter 53 says:
The way of Great Dao is so smooth, but people prefer to take the most difficult route.
Even choosing to see life as empty and meaningless is a choice, isn't it?
I think that what Laozi is saying in chapter 53 is that we each tend to complicate things much more than they need to be. How do we do that? Maybe by trying to steal the choices of others and adopting them as our own. Or maybe by trying to push our own choices on others.
When Laozi says at the end of that chapter:
Stealing is in opposition to Dao.
I don't think he's talking about stealing possessions, but about stealing the Paths of others.
Of course, the later Daoist religion came up with all sorts of rules that MUST be followed. It's kind of funny to think of forcing Dao to follow rules.
Maybe you can explain why you feel comfortable with the idea that life is empty and meaningless? If that's what you were saying?
-Nina |
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quirky
Australia
12 Posts |
Posted - 06/25/2005 : 4:05:40 PM
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Thanks Nina, I see that maybe the Daoist group, (Taiwan), I am searching with, are, as you put it "later Daoist religion--"
Life being empty and meaningless is a very simplistic thought wich one could have after saying that the purpose of life is [a]survival
and [b]to be happy and content. underpinning these thoughts is another simplistic statement "life is an abyss of self interest".
these are quandries that I seem to be obcessed with.I dont chose to believe these statements only to examine them.I am more interested in others points of view and why.
I have being following daoism for 2 years now: study groups,praying and living it as best I see. My teachers are Taiwanese with Masters, Holyhouses and rituals. I sensed from your reply that Daoism may have less regulated forms. I have also followed Sidah Yoga,wonderfull philosophy but bound up with a lot of rituals.Perhaps I think the rituals interfer with the heart of the teaching.
So,I try to keep my Questions Basic,to the heart of the matter,not on specifics.
Love Frank
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Nina
USA
6376 Posts |
Posted - 06/25/2005 : 5:34:45 PM
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How interesting, Frank!
You've been following the practices of Daoism for 2 years? Do you think that by following those rituals, etc. they've made you a happier more integrated person?
Another thing I wonder is whether a requirement of your teachings is to read the original texts of Daoist thought: Laozi and Zhuangzi? If so, which versions do you use? Do you read them in Chinese? Are you in Taiwan?
Sorry for all the questions, but I like to hear about other people's practices as well.
I'm not a "ritualistic" person myself. I spent 8 years in Catholic school, and I had all the rituals I could handle. They seemed too contrived, and people put on a lovely face of being holy while they condemned the rest of humanity to hell.
When I first read the Dao De Jing it spoke more directly to my heart. It showed me how I could love myself and love all the rest of the 10,000 things on this earth without needing to follow any rituals to achieve that.
You said: Life being empty and meaningless is a very simplistic thought wich one could have after saying that the purpose of life is [a]survival
and [b]to be happy and content. underpinning these thoughts is another simplistic statement "life is an abyss of self interest".
Where's the idea of integration? How could any person be truly happy and content if their only thoughts were of their own survival and contentment? That seems to be what the majority of people on this planet are doing - and I don't think they're happy. I could be wrong, though.
Laozi speaks about reaching out, not only to the wonderful Mother that allows us to survive - but to the other creatures as well.
Oh, one other thing.............I don't see emptiness as state of being constantly empty. That would mean you'd never allow anything to come inside of you. I see emptiness as the Chinese character Chong1, which allows everything to flow in and then flow back out. Not holding onto anything too tightly. As you're able to let go of something, a new treasure comes in.
-Nina
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quirky
Australia
12 Posts |
Posted - 06/25/2005 : 9:09:54 PM
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Thanks Nina,
no I have not read much on the original texts of Daoist thought,we are on a farm 300miles west of Sydney and there is a small group of Daoists from Taiwan, vegetable farming here and talking about the Dao.I am 3generations Aussie from Ireland i'm afraid.
I also went through my early life a "good"
catholic then an athiest and now a searcher who finds the teachings of daoism pointing to the TRUTH. Still lots of questions though.
Is God, the Truth,conciousness or whatever we say,---- in all of us and all living creatures and even is/in all things existing?Is this taught in Daoism?
I get your point, that, I should get hold of some Daoist Texts to read. I dont speak mandarine and their english is not very good.
MAYBE the notion that life is empty and meaningless is a usefull one when we GET it , because it gets rid of the thoughtless delusion that there is somewhere to get to ,something to attain and frees us to ask what's next and to make clear choices.
thanks again
Frank |
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quirky
Australia
12 Posts |
Posted - 06/25/2005 : 9:22:41 PM
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PS: Just found Laozis Dao Di Jing.
I will be busy for awhile.
love Frank |
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Starjumper
USA
620 Posts |
Posted - 06/26/2005 : 10:32:23 AM
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There are varying levels of religion versus philosophy in Taoism. The community you have as neighbors are no doubt into the religious side. Most Westerners are more into the philosophy side. The two can blend together. If there is a master in the group, what is he a master of (don't ask bluntly =) and do they teach you any meditational practices?
SJ |
Edited by - Starjumper on 06/26/2005 11:42:17 AM |
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Nina
USA
6376 Posts |
Posted - 06/26/2005 : 11:55:12 AM
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quote:
Is God, the Truth,conciousness or whatever we say,---- in all of us and all living creatures and even is/in all things existing?Is this taught in Daoism?
Hi Frank-
There's a story in Zhuangzi where a guy asks "Where is Dao?" Zhuangzi tells him it's in the ants. The guy's amazed that Dao could be in something as insignificant and lowly as an ant. He askes if it's even in things lower than an ant. Zhuangzi tells him it's in piss and shit.
Although some may disagree with me, I don't see Dao as God, Truth or consciousness. Laozi says if you go looking for Dao, you'll never find it.
IMO all things in this universe are connected simply because we came from the same source. I don't know what that source is, but I suppose you could give it any name you like.
quote:
MAYBE the notion that life is empty and meaningless is a usefull one when we GET it , because it gets rid of the thoughtless delusion that there is somewhere to get to ,something to attain and frees us to ask what's next and to make clear choices.
Lots of Daoists say that the Journey is the "goal." Does that mean the Journey has to be empty and/or meaningless?
You live on a farm in Australia? Then you must do some planting and harvesting? Maybe this might be a good way of looking at it: If the soil in your fields remained empty, there wouldn't be a harvest. You have to fertilize and cultivate the soil - that's like fertilizing and cultivating your self. Then you have to plant seeds at the proper time of year - that's like being open to new ideas that might sing to your heart. Then you have to prune, water and nourish the crops - that's like Daoist practices of meditation, Tai Chi (or other physical practices), and reading ancient texts. Then comes harvest time when all the goodies can be picked and enjoyed - that's like reaping benefits from your spiritual, mental and physical practices. Then you let the soil rest for a while, and start all over again. You learn along the way which crops will grow in your climate and which will wither and die. If you keep trying to plant crops that are unsuitable for your climate, you're wasting a lot of energy.
I'm glad Starjumper joined us in this discussion - I'm sure he'll have some wonderful new insights to add.
Let us know what you're reading and how it's sitting with you, okay?
And remember - there are as many different approaches and opinions of Dao and Daoism as there are people who learn about it. Gravitate towards those who speak to your heart, and don't worry about those who confuse you.
Speak soon-
Nina |
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quirky
Australia
12 Posts |
Posted - 06/27/2005 : 05:08:16 AM
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For SJ So far as I have been able to ascertain, there are at least 3 living masters who are able to open our third eye and help us cultivate the Dao.They date back to china 5000 years ago. A lot like the Siddah Yoga gurus who give shaktipat.They travel a lot, I received the Dao from Master "O" last year very ritualistic , like baptism. No, they are not into meditation, more into the Islamic theme of keeping your thoughts on god,being humble and always a sincere heart.
For Nina:::They are not stong on God being in everything,or God being a presence as "God", rather, -how we live our life and cultivate the Dao, with an ultimate aim of opening our third eye.
Jesus and Buddah are important prophets
The elusive point about "life being empty and meaningless" is that its a "GOT" as in a zen got,once you get it, its over, you dont carry it around with you like an albatross.If the notion that life is empty and meaningless abhores you than you need to stop and look at it objectively,outside the 9 dots so to speak and leave it out there as a question to be explored. Like most zen gots, once you get them you laugh and move on,but with a clearer view.
I have to admit how lucky I was to meet these Daoists out here in the bush as I had never heard of it before and now to find these forums on the subject ....so yes "gravitate towards those who speak to your heart"
love Frank [quirky] |
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Nina
USA
6376 Posts |
Posted - 06/27/2005 : 3:32:49 PM
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Hi Frank-
Thanks for the info on the Daoism you've been following. It sounds like your local Daoists are very holy and respectful people.
I hope you enjoy this forum, and feel free to jump into any other discussions here - or post your own questions. You might want to start in the "Open Discussions" section.
Have fun-
Nina |
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sister
USA
768 Posts |
Posted - 06/27/2005 : 6:49:36 PM
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Welcome, Quirky! And hello again, Starjumper. What a treat to hear this conversation!
And something entirely unexpected from Nina, for me: <"I see emptiness as the Chinese character Chong1, which allows everything to flow in and then flow back out. Not holding onto anything too tightly.">
Who thought we would ever agree on anything? This is wonderful. You've made my evening.
And I thought it was going to be a net loss! ;-)
sister (to Quirky: that Daoist nun, of the ethical/religious Complete Reality persuasion) (So nice to meet you!)
http://community-2.webtv.net/DaoistReflections/
http://bluelady.lbbhost.com/sister/photo.html |
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Cloudoverthesun
USA
174 Posts |
Posted - 10/13/2005 : 1:54:18 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Nina
We all make choices in life. Even choosing to connect with Dao is a choice. The Dao De Jing chapter 53 says:
The way of Great Dao is so smooth, but people prefer to take the most difficult route.
Even choosing to see life as empty and meaningless is a choice, isn't it?
Hi Nina,
Sorry to come back to this so many months after it has been posted - hope you don't mind. :)
I have to ask, are these really choices? I tried choosing not to connect and not to see - young, foolish, wanting to be as happily oblivious as so many around me appeared to be - and found that there was no choice to be made there.
Is there anyway to not be connected with Tao? (I don't think so for various reasons.) Or is this just another case of language not clearly expressing that which would be conveyed?
From another post:quote:
You said: Life being empty and meaningless is a very simplistic thought wich one could have after saying that the purpose of life is [a]survival
and [b]to be happy and content. underpinning these thoughts is another simplistic statement "life is an abyss of self interest".
Where's the idea of integration? How could any person be truly happy and content if their only thoughts were of their own survival and contentment? That seems to be what the majority of people on this planet are doing - and I don't think they're happy. I could be wrong, though.
:wading into deeper waters here: I have often wondered how anyone could be *truly happy and content* so long as they are still looking externally for some purpose in life. Perhaps many are happy with their searching, but I have to wonder, isn't it enough that life just is, isn't it enough to *be* - whatever expression of the universe that the manifest *you* is in any given moment?
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Nina
USA
6376 Posts |
Posted - 10/13/2005 : 5:17:12 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Cloudoverthesun
Sorry to come back to this so many months after it has been posted - hope you don't mind. :)
No, I don't mind. It's fine to post anywhere you find something interesting. I think we lost Frank (quirky) a while ago.
quote:
I have to ask, are these really choices? I tried choosing not to connect and not to see - young, foolish, wanting to be as happily oblivious as so many around me appeared to be - and found that there was no choice to be made there.
Is there anyway to not be connected with Tao? (I don't think so for various reasons.) Or is this just another case of language not clearly expressing that which would be conveyed?
Those are some really deep questions. I guess each one of us has to answer them for ourselves?
IMO some choices aren't really choices at all - like what you mentioned in your first paragraph. If you connect with a part of you that's coming from your heart, then I don't think that's a choice. The choices revolve around which direction you choose to take at that point. You may not have been able to be as "obliviously happy" as some of your friends, but you must have traveled down some roads that seemed right at the time but you eventually abandoned?
As for "choosing to connect with Dao".......... Yes, I think that's a choice. In one sense, we're all connected to Dao. But we don't necessarily pay any attention to the Dao within us and around us. That's where the choice is.
quote:
:wading into deeper waters here: I have often wondered how anyone could be *truly happy and content* so long as they are still looking externally for some purpose in life. Perhaps many are happy with their searching, but I have to wonder, isn't it enough that life just is, isn't it enough to *be* - whatever expression of the universe that the manifest *you* is in any given moment?
The idea of integration isn't like looking for something external in life to fulfill you or make you happy. When we connect with Dao (or pay attention to Dao within us and around us), we just naturally get integrated with everything. There's no effort in communicating with any of the 10,000 things - as there's no goal or motive in mind.
IMO a person can't be truly happy and content until they've integrated with the 10,000 things. One might be happy or content when one is deeply involved in their own self-cultivation, but until they don't get rattled by however one of the 10,000 things approaches and/or confronts them, they're still not really connected to Dao. That doesn't mean not getting emotionally involved with other things/people, but being able to see their emotions as building blocks rather than building walls of separation.
Still learning-
Nina |
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Cloudoverthesun
USA
174 Posts |
Posted - 10/21/2005 : 2:27:47 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Nina
IMO some choices aren't really choices at all - like what you mentioned in your first paragraph. If you connect with a part of you that's coming from your heart, then I don't think that's a choice. The choices revolve around which direction you choose to take at that point. You may not have been able to be as "obliviously happy" as some of your friends, but you must have traveled down some roads that seemed right at the time but you eventually abandoned?
:scratching head and wondering: Things fall away as things naturally do, and yes many things that were *right* in one time are not *right* in this time.
Perhaps I am misunderstanding you?
quote:
As for "choosing to connect with Dao".......... Yes, I think that's a choice. In one sense, we're all connected to Dao. But we don't necessarily pay any attention to the Dao within us and around us. That's where the choice is.
Yes, I see what you are saying. I'll have to let this sit a bit longer. :reserving the right to come back to it at any time:
quote:
The idea of integration isn't like looking for something external in life to fulfill you or make you happy. When we connect with Dao (or pay attention to Dao within us and around us), we just naturally get integrated with everything. There's no effort in communicating with any of the 10,000 things - as there's no goal or motive in mind.
Thanks for taking the time to clarify.
quote:
IMO a person can't be truly happy and content until they've integrated with the 10,000 things. One might be happy or content when one is deeply involved in their own self-cultivation, but until they don't get rattled by however one of the 10,000 things approaches and/or confronts them, they're still not really connected to Dao. That doesn't mean not getting emotionally involved with other things/people, but being able to see their emotions as building blocks rather than building walls of separation.
Hm I use this entirely too much too illustrate my point, but I think of warrior heart. Or maybe warrior heart is what doesn't get rattled - even when chopping off an adversaries head?
To me connection includes the known fact that I would physically protect those close to me by whatever means were at my disposal and not try to submerge or quell or nullify this natural aspect of my human experience. Get rattled by someone harming my sister? Depends on what one would call rattled I suppose.
quote:
Still learning-
Nina
Most of us are. :) |
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Nina
USA
6376 Posts |
Posted - 10/22/2005 : 10:52:54 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Cloudoverthesun
quote:
Originally posted by Nina
you must have traveled down some roads that seemed right at the time but you eventually abandoned?
:scratching head and wondering: Things fall away as things naturally do, and yes many things that were *right* in one time are not *right* in this time.
Perhaps I am misunderstanding you?
I don't know. Maybe we're talking about the same thing? Some things just "fall away", but others have to be forceably ejected. I thought of a disgusting analogy, but it might work. Let's say you ate some food at a picnic that turned out to be spoiled. Your stomach starts grumbling and you're getting the sweats. You can either make the choice to regurgitate the food now, or wait for it to naturally eject itself on its own. Well, maybe that's not such a good analogy.
You choose which job to take. You choose where to live. You choose who to hang out with. Do you just wait for everything to pan out on its own, or do you take an active role in the directions you can go in life?
quote:
Hm I use this entirely too much too illustrate my point, but I think of warrior heart. Or maybe warrior heart is what doesn't get rattled - even when chopping off an adversaries head?
To me connection includes the known fact that I would physically protect those close to me by whatever means were at my disposal and not try to submerge or quell or nullify this natural aspect of my human experience. Get rattled by someone harming my sister? Depends on what one would call rattled I suppose.
Yes. That's where I think we need to look at whether we're getting rattled from our own sense of self-importance (wounded ego) or getting rattled when an imminent threat is presented. Some people use self-cultivation as a means to remove themselves and their emotions from the world and the people around them - they never want to get rattled. What seems more beneficial to me is being able to inter-connect and still sense the different types of "rattle-ment." But I could be entirely wrong - I'm still working on it.
When I was a young woman, I kept running away to the mountains every chance I got. I'd live there until my money ran out, then I'd come back to the city to earn more money. Then one day I was sitting with a friend of mine, and we were both musing on how wonderful it would be if we could get out of the city once and for all - leaving behind all the rubbish and carnage, etc. What we realized was that we were creating our own hell. Then the song lyric came to my mind: "If I can make it here, I can make it anywhere..." My friend joined a rock band, got rich, and moved to the mountains with his lady fair. They use much of their money helping underpriveleged and abused children.
Life is interesting.
-Nina |
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