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ChiDragon
USA
2870 Posts |
 Posted - 12/14/2008 : 4:28:26 PM
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Tao Te Ching Time table
郭店 Guodian 476 – 278 BCE; Unearthed:1993; Published: May 1998
馬王堆-甲本(MWD-A) 206 – 195 BCE; 篆書(Seal style); Unearthed:1974
馬王堆-乙本(MWD-B) 194 – 180 BCE; 隸書(Official Style); Unearthed:1974
洪上公(Heshang Gong) 179 – 157 BCE
王弼(Wang Bi) 226 – 249 CE
傅奕(Fu Yi) 555 – 639 CE
漢朝 - 皇帝 Emperors of Han Dynasty
高祖 - 劉邦 Liu2 bang1 206 – 195 BCE
文帝 - 劉盈 Liu2 ying2 194 – 188 BCE
惠帝 – 劉恒 Liu2 heng2 180 – 157 BCE
Please confirm the dates, thank you...
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ChiDragon Speaks doesn't know
Tao Te Ching knows doesn't speak |
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Nina
USA
6402 Posts |
Posted - 12/14/2008 : 6:19:52 PM
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Those dates are accurate as far as my findings, Chi Dragon, with these possible corrections:
The Mawangdui was unearthed in 1973.
Ho-Shang Kung claimed he had a copy that was written in c. 179 - 157 BCE that he made his translation from, but it's never been verified or found. He wrote his translation in the 3rd or 4th century CE.
-Nina
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ChiDragon
USA
2870 Posts |
Posted - 12/14/2008 : 10:53:15 PM
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Tao Te Ching Time table
郭店 Guodian 476 – 278 BCE; Unearthed:1993; Published: May 1998
馬王堆-甲本(MWD-A) 206 – 195 BCE; 篆書(Seal style); Unearthed:1973
馬王堆-乙本(MWD-B) 194 – 180 BCE; 隸書(Official Style); Unearthed:1973
洪上公(Heshang Gong) 179 – 157 BCE
王弼(Wang Bi) 226 – 249 CE
傅奕(Fu Yi) 555 – 639 CE
漢朝 - 皇帝 Emperors of Han Dynasty
高祖 - 劉邦 Liu2 bang1 206 – 195 BCE
文帝 - 劉盈 Liu2 ying2 194 – 188 BCE
惠帝 – 劉恒 Liu2 heng2 180 – 157 BCE
Note: Changes were made in bold. Thanks to Nina.
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ChiDragon Speaks doesn't know
Tao Te Ching knows doesn't speak |
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lienshan
Denmark
659 Posts |
Posted - 12/17/2008 : 1:37:11 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by ChiDragon
洪上公(Heshang Gong) 179 – 157 BCE
The historian Liu Zhiji wrote in 719 to the Emperor:
"The Laozi most commonly circulating now is that with the Heshang Gong commentary. Its frontpage says:
Heshang Gong is a man living in the reign of Emperor Wen of the Han (176-159 BCE). He made himself a straw hut at the riverbend of Huang He and took his eponym from there. He handed the Laozi commented by him to Emperor Wen and thereupon soared into space and went towards Heaven.
According to the bibliographical facts of the "History of the former Han" three scholars with commentaries on the Laozi are listed, but none of them coming from the River. Is this not a case of a later commentator making up such a tale because he wanted to have this affair appear miraculous?"
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ChiDragon
USA
2870 Posts |
Posted - 12/17/2008 : 2:51:52 PM
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LaoTze was born around 571 BCE and wrote the DDJ in his seventy's.
Tao Te Ching Time table
老子 LaoTze Born: Around 571 BCE.
道德經 Wrote DDJ: 500 - 491 BCE.
郭店 Guodian 476 – 278 BCE; Unearthed:1993; Published: May 1998
馬王堆-甲本(MWD-A) 206 – 195 BCE; 篆書(Seal style); Unearthed:1973
馬王堆-乙本(MWD-B) 194 – 180 BCE; 隸書(Official Style); Unearthed:1973
洪上公(Heshang Gong) 179 – 157 BCE
王弼(Wang Bi) 226 – 249 CE
傅奕(Fu Yi) 555 – 639 CE
漢朝 - 皇帝 Emperors of Han Dynasty
高祖 - 劉邦 Liu2 bang1 206 – 195 BCE
文帝 - 劉盈 Liu2 ying2 194 – 188 BCE
惠帝 – 劉恒 Liu2 heng2 180 – 157 BCE
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ChiDragon Speaks doesn't know
Tao Te Ching knows doesn't speak |
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lienshan
Denmark
659 Posts |
Posted - 02/19/2009 : 3:30:28 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by ChiDragon
You are jumping back and forth from version to version
Yes - I'm comparing the versions in order to understand, why they are different.
quote:
Originally posted by ChiDragon
with third hand information
First and second hand information about Laozi isn't available.
quote:
Originally posted by ChiDragon
changing ideas of DDJ with your own
An observer and the observed can't be absolutely separated according to the nobelprized nuclear scientist Niels Bohr.
quote:
Originally posted by ChiDragon
not knowing the real meanings and how to use the Chinese characters
Who knows the real meanings? And yes.
quote:
Originally posted by ChiDragon
people are totally lost of what you are trying to explain
I'm not trying to explain anything to others than myself.
quote:
Originally posted by ChiDragon
What do you think that you are going accomplish here...???
I think, that I am going to help you with your Tao Te Ching Time Table by dating the original Mawangdui B manuscript very precisely, but I still have to research e.g. the chapter 25 text a little more. It's written no earlier than 201 BCE and no later than 187 BCE. If the original manuscript was written 201-195 BCE, then the Mawangdui B probably is a direct copy of the original? If it was written 194-187 BCE, then the Mawangdui B maybe is the original manuscript?
quote:
Originally posted by ChiDragon
I'm so sorry that I have to make such statements addressed to you......
No problem. I only wonder why you aren't working on your Dao De Jing translating instead? 
lienshan |
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ChiDragon
USA
2870 Posts |
Posted - 02/19/2009 : 5:11:25 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by lienshan
I think, that I am going to help you with your Tao Te Ching Time Table by dating the original Mawangdui B manuscript very precisely, but I still have to research e.g. the chapter 25 text a little more. It's written no earlier than 201 BCE and no later than 187 BCE. If the original manuscript was written 201-195 BCE, then the Mawangdui B probably is a direct copy of the original? If it was written 194-187 BCE, then the Mawangdui B maybe is the original manuscript?
lienshan
lienshan....
Mawangdui B cannot be the original manuscript, because it was written in Official Style which was adapted by the first emperor(Liu2 bang1) of the Han dynasty. The original manuscript would have had been written in a more primitive style.
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ChiDragon Speaks doesn't know
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lienshan
Denmark
659 Posts |
Posted - 02/20/2009 : 02:47:30 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by ChiDragon
Mawangdui B cannot be the original manuscript, because it was written in Official Style which was adapted by the first emperor(Liu2 bang1) of the Han dynasty. The original manuscript would have had been written in a more primitive style.
Mawangdui A was written in small seal script (xiaozhuan) and Mawangdui B was written in clerical script (lishu). I regard Mawangdui A as being an original manuscript outdated as a royal library silk book in 195 BCE, when bang became a taboo character. I suspect Mawangdui B as being a 1th generation copy of an original manuscript too outdated as a royal library (probably bamboo) book in 195 BCE. The Mawangdui B copy was outdated as a royal library silk book in 187 BCE, when ying became a taboo character.
The Changsha kingdom was the only one of the ten Han kingdoms, that still had a non-Liu Bang relative king in 187 BCE. The Changsha kings must have been 100% loyal to the Liu family. That's why I think, that they copied new silk books without taboo characters to their royal library every time a Han emperor died. Some of the outdated royal library books ended as a matter of fact in the tomb 3 belonging to an unimportant/lowranking man. He was given the outdated Mawangdui B copy in 187 BCE or early 186 BCE, before his (probably step)father Li Cang, the prime minister of Changsha, died and was buried in the tomb 1.
I regard both Mawangdui A and B as original early Han versions of Dao De Jing, because they are structured otherwise than the Received version. They include, like the Guodian Laozi, characters known from Dao De Jing, but they are not the original Laozi Dao De Jing but independant edited versions in my opinion.
Some details in Mawangdui A indicate, that the author of A version knew the B version. That's why I think, that the B silk version written in clerical script (lishu) was preceeded by an original B bamboo version written in small seal script (xiaozhuan) about 201-200 BCE, that'll say earlier than the A version.
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Edited by - lienshan on 02/20/2009 03:05:57 AM |
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Bao Pu
Canada
101 Posts |
Posted - 02/21/2009 : 09:39:33 AM
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How long is an emperor's name tabooed? Until the next emperor dies?
Good health, harmony and happiness,
Bao Pu |
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ChiDragon
USA
2870 Posts |
Posted - 02/22/2009 : 11:53:55 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Bao Pu
How long is an emperor's name tabooed? Until the next emperor dies?
Good health, harmony and happiness,
Bao Pu
IMO It is a matter of respect to all the emperors. The emperor's name was tabooed for the life of the whole dynasty.
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ChiDragon Speaks doesn't know
Tao Te Ching knows doesn't speak |
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ChiDragon
USA
2870 Posts |
Posted - 07/18/2010 : 12:33:01 PM
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LaoTze was born around 571 BCE and wrote the DDJ in his seventy's.
Tao Te Ching Time table
老子 LaoTze Born: Around 571 BCE.
道德經 Wrote DDJ: 500 - 491 BCE.
郭店 Guodian 476 – 278 BCE; Unearthed:1993; Published: May 1998
馬王堆-甲本(MWD-A) 206 – 195 BCE; 篆書(Seal style); Unearthed:1973
馬王堆-乙本(MWD-B) 194 – 180 BCE; 隸書(Official Style); Unearthed:1973
河上公(Heshang Gong) 179 – 157 BCE
王弼(Wang Bi) 226 – 249 CE
傅奕(Fu Yi) 555 – 639 CE
漢朝 - 皇帝 Emperors of Han Dynasty
高祖 - 劉邦 Liu2 bang1 206 – 195 BCE
文帝 - 劉盈 Liu2 ying2 194 – 188 BCE
惠帝 – 劉恒 Liu2 heng2 180 – 157 BCE
Correction:
Correct: 河上公(Heshang Gong) 179 – 157 BCE
Incorrect: 洪上公(Heshang Gong) 179 – 157 BCE
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CD speaks doesn't know.
TTC knows doesn't speak. |
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ChiDragon
USA
2870 Posts |
Posted - 07/19/2010 : 11:42:50 AM
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LaoTze was born around 571 BCE and wrote the DDJ in his seventy's.
孔子(Confucius): 551 - 479 BCE.
Tao Te Ching Time table
老子 LaoTze Born: Around 571 BCE.
道德經 Wrote DDJ: 500 - 491 BCE.
郭店 Guodian 476 – 278 BCE; Unearthed:1993; Published: May 1998
馬王堆-甲本(MWD-A) 206 – 195 BCE; 篆書(Seal style); Unearthed:1973
馬王堆-乙本(MWD-B) 194 – 180 BCE; 隸書(Official Style); Unearthed:1973
河上公(Heshang Gong) 179 – 157 BCE
王弼(Wang Bi) 226 – 249 CE
傅奕(Fu Yi) 555 – 639 CE
漢朝 - 皇帝 Emperors of Han Dynasty
高祖 - 劉邦 Liu2 bang1 206 – 195 BCE
文帝 - 劉盈 Liu2 ying2 194 – 188 BCE
惠帝 – 劉恒 Liu2 heng2 180 – 157 BCE
Added Confucius to the time table. It was significant because Confucius had a consultation with LaoTze about the etiquette.
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CD speaks doesn't know.
TTC knows doesn't speak. |
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Tao Te Ching Time Table
