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raymond
USA
26 Posts |
 Posted - 11/23/2009 : 05:29:14 AM
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From ZZ C 23. Watson: And if it is free from good and bad fortune, then what human suffering can it undergo?
禍福無有，惡有人災也？”
If I recall, 惡 does not mean “hate” here, but is rather indicates a question. Yes?
raymond |
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raymond
USA
26 Posts |
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ChiDragon
USA
2870 Posts |
Posted - 11/26/2009 : 1:18:42 PM
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quote:
[i]Originally posted by raymond[/i]
[br]
From ZZ C 23. Watson: And if it is free from good and bad fortune, then what human suffering can it undergo?
禍福無有，惡有人災也？”
If I recall, 惡 does not mean “hate” here, but is rather indicates a question. Yes?
raymond
禍福無有，惡有人災也!
This is not a question because it was ended with 也(yi3).
Link: Yi3
Proper translation for ancient Chinese:
If there is no evil or fortune, it is an ill omen of disaster to humanity.
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CD speaks doesn't know.
TTC knows doesn't speak. |
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raymond
USA
26 Posts |
Posted - 11/27/2009 : 09:23:32 AM
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Thanks ChiDragon. I have seen this translated as a question (by others besides Watson), and also as an exclamation. I will use the one that makes sense to me in the context of the paragraph. And I will not claim that "I am right."
raymond |
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ChiDragon
USA
2870 Posts |
Posted - 11/27/2009 : 11:47:18 AM
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Raymond: "I will use the one that makes sense to me in the context of the paragraph. And I will not claim that "I am right.""
IMO The western Scholars do not interpret the DDJ as classic Chinese. They only translate the characters by their superficial meaning. Even though it might make sense to you, but you were also misled by the mistranslation of others.
To be always right. It is improper to treat each statement with the character 也(yi3), at the end, as a question.
FYI Each statement with 乎(hu1) at the end is definitely a question. Let's get the facts straight and learn things the right way. So you can claim that "you are right" all the time....
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raymond
USA
26 Posts |
Posted - 11/27/2009 : 3:07:19 PM
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Hi ChiDragon
Luckily I have no desire to be always right. But I am grateful for your input.
If you have time, please translate the entire paragraph where those lines occur:
曰：“未也。吾固告汝曰：‘能兒子乎？’兒子動不知所為，行不知所之，身若槁木之枝而心若死灰矣。若是者，禍亦不至，福亦不來。禍福無有，惡有人災也？”
raymond |
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ChiDragon
USA
2870 Posts |
Posted - 11/27/2009 : 4:35:21 PM
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Raymond...
Gladly, thank you for giving me this opportunity to do the translation for you...
Original Classic:
曰：“未也。吾固告汝曰：‘能兒子乎？’兒子動不知所為，行不知所之，身若槁木之枝而心若死灰矣。若是者，禍亦不至，福亦不來。禍福無有，惡有人災也？”
Modern interpretation:
老子說：“沒有。我原本就告訴過你：‘能夠像初生的嬰兒那樣純真、樸質嗎？’嬰兒活動不知道幹什麼，行走不知道去哪，身形像枯槁的樹枝而心境像熄盡了死灰。像這樣的人，災禍不會到來，幸福也不會降臨。禍福都不存在，哪還會有人間的災害呢！”
Translation of the modern interpretation:
老子說：“沒有。我原本就告訴過你：‘能夠像初生的嬰兒那樣純真、樸質嗎？’
LaoZi said: "None. Originally, I had told you already: 'can you be as innocent as a new born infant, and as naive?
行走不知道去哪，身形像枯槁的樹枝而心境像熄盡了死灰。
He moves not knowing where he is going, his body is like a withered branch of a tree and his heart is like burnt dead ash.
像這樣的人，災禍不會到來，幸福也不會降臨。禍福都不存在，哪還會有人間的災害呢！”
Like this kind of people, calamity will not come; happiness also will not descend. The calamity and happiness do not exist, then, how can there be any disaster existed in the world of mankind!
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ChiDragon
USA
2870 Posts |
Posted - 11/27/2009 : 4:53:28 PM
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Link:
Source for the above
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raymond
USA
26 Posts |
Posted - 11/27/2009 : 6:05:46 PM
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Hi ChiDragon
"how can there be any disaster existed in the world of mankind!"
This is your translation of: " 惡有人災也？” Am I correct?
raymond |
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ChiDragon
USA
2870 Posts |
Posted - 11/27/2009 : 10:51:59 PM
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Raymond...
禍福無有，
The calamity and happiness do not exist, then,
"惡有人災也!”
how can there be any disaster existed in the world of mankind!
Yes, you are correct, but it must be within context with the previous phase(禍福無有).
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raymond
USA
26 Posts |
Posted - 11/28/2009 : 05:00:38 AM
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Thanks ChiDragon
regarding "how can there be any disaster existed in the world of mankind!"
Do you take that to be a rhetorical question?
How do you translate: 惡 How do you translate 災
raymond |
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ChiDragon
USA
2870 Posts |
Posted - 11/28/2009 : 10:55:54 AM
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Raymond...
Ray: "Do you take that to be a rhetorical question?"
Yes...
By the characters alone, I would translate them from my electronic dictionary:
How do you translate: 惡
A. as a noun:
1. evil; wickedness
2. wicked
B. as a verb:
1. to loathe
C. as an adverb:
1. how (used as such in classic Chinese only).
How do you translate 災
1. a calamity
2. a disaster
惡(how) was used as an adverb in classic Chinese. In the modern time, do not use as such. I just found that out, myself, due to your curiosity.
Many thanks......
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TTC knows doesn't speak. |
Edited by - ChiDragon on 11/28/2009 11:23:24 AM |
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ChiDragon
USA
2870 Posts |
Posted - 11/28/2009 : 12:56:33 PM
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Raymond.....
You have the answer all along..... I took the modern definition for granted and overlooked the classic meaning. Please keep track of me and don't take everything I said! Thanks again.
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raymond
USA
26 Posts |
Posted - 11/29/2009 : 07:52:53 AM
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Hi ChiDragon. I can see that you are quite skilled at 體 道 "ti dao", embodying the dao. I say that with sincerity. And thanks for an infomative exchange of ideas.
raymond |
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ChiDragon
USA
2870 Posts |
Posted - 12/04/2009 : 09:43:23 AM
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Hi..Raymond...
Thank you for your sincerity! A little thought about 體 道 "ti dao", embodying the dao.
It would be more close to say that 體道 "ti dao" is grokking Tao(體會道).
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question on 惡
