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jimclatfelter
USA
1026 Posts |
 Posted - 06/01/2010 : 3:56:57 PM
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Verse 1
(Edit by Nina: Wang Bi version?)
道 可 道，非 常 道。
dao4 ke3 dao4, fei1 chang2 dao4;
DAO CAN? DAO NOT CONSTANT DA0
Dao upon dao is not the constant Dao.
名 可 名，非 常 名。
ming2 ke3 ming2, fei1 chang2 ming2.
NAME CAN? NAME NOT CONSTANT NAME
Name upon name is not the constant name.
無 名 天 地 之 始。
wu2 ming2 tian1 di4 zhi1 shi3;
NONEXISTENCE NAME HEAVEN EARTH XXX ORIGIN
Nonexistence names the origin of heaven and earth.
有 名 萬 物 之 母。
you3 ming2 wan4 wu4 zhi1 mu3.
EXISTENCE NAME 10,000 THING XXX MOTHER
Existence names the mother of all things.
故 常 無 欲 以 觀 其 妙。
gu4 chang2 wu2, yu4 yi3 guan1 qi2 miao4;
THUS ALWAYS NONEXISTENCE DESIRE TO SEE ITS MYSTERY
Look at nonexistence if you wish to see its essence.
常 有 欲 以 觀 其 徼。
chang2 you3, yu4 yi3 guan1 qi2 jiao3.
ALWAYS EXISTENCE DESIRE TO SEE ITS FORMS
Look at existence if you wish to see its appearance.
此 兩 者 同 出 而 異 名，
ci3 liang3 zhe3 tong2, chu1 er2 yi4 ming2,
THESE TWO XXX SAME ORIGIN BUT DIFFERENT NAME
These two have separate names but a single origin.
同 謂 之 玄。
tong2 wei4 zhi1 xuan2.
CALL BOTH THEM PROFOUND
Call them both deep.
玄 之 又 玄，
xuan2 zhi1 you4 xuan2,
PROFOUND XXX MORE PROFOUND
Depth upon depth,
眾妙之門。非常道。
zhong4 miao4 zhi1 men2.
ALL MYSTERY XXX GATE
The gate to all essence.
Verse 1 (very tentative)
Dao upon dao is not the constant Dao.
Name upon name is not the constant name.
Nonexistence names the origin of heaven and earth.
Existence names the mother of all things.
Look at nonexistence if you wish to see its essence.
Look at existence if you wish to see its appearance.
These two have separate names but the same origin.
Call them both deep:
Depth upon depth,
The gateway to all essence.
Note 1 concerning a previous thread on verse 1
Bradford provided possible for definitions for ke3 in the first line:
(to) accept, accommodate, adapt, approve, admit, allow, ask, bear (with), befit, call (for, out, up), consent (to), incite, incur, indicate, invite, permit, prescribe, submit, suit, tolerate, (s, ed, ing); (to be) able, about, acceptable, accommodating, all right, amenable, appropriate, apt, asked, befitting, called (for), calling, competent, conducive, convenient, capable, deserving, due, easy, enough, fit, fitting, friendly, good, inclined, inviting, likely, possible, potential, proper, ready, right, satisfactory, sufficient, suggesting, suitable, suited, welcome, willing, worthy (of, to, for); (that, which) can, could, may, might, should (be); can (then) be; can/may ... be; to need/be worth doing; easily; -able. Subjunctive mood.
My use of upon doesn't seem to follow from any of those definitions.
David thought it important to preserve the parallel structure of the first two lines, thus my attempt to do so. Maybe I will hit upon a way to keep the parallel structure with a word that fits one of the definitions better. I hope my subconscious is working on it. Any suggestions?
Note 2
wu2 and you3 = nonexistence and existence
miao4 and jiao3 = essence and appearance
Are these the the two poles of Dao? To me they are. Wang Bi seems to look at it the same way. I know some of you do not go along with this interpretation (Nina?). Others do (Rene?). For me this is one of the core messages of the DDJ.
wu2 ming2 = the named
you3 ming2 = the nameless
These are the most common translations. I just treated ming2 as a verb (to name). If this seems to be an absolutely impossible way to translate ming2, I will work on changing it.
I realize I have eliminate the Named and Nameless polarity as a pair of words, but the polarity brought out by the two lines still stands.
Jim |
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ChiDragon
USA
2863 Posts |
Posted - 06/01/2010 : 5:24:51 PM
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Jim....
道 可 道，非 常 道。
dao4 ke3 dao4, fei1 chang2 dao4;
DAO CAN? DAO NOT CONSTANT DA0
Dao upon dao is not the constant Dao.
名 可 名，非 常 名。
ming2 ke3 ming2, fei1 chang2 ming2.
NAME CAN? NAME NOT CONSTANT NAME
Name upon name is not the constant name.
Have you noticed where the comma is...???
Why did you translated as:
DAO CAN? instead of "Tao can be Taoed(spoken),"
NAME CAN? instead of "Name can be named,"
If you pay close attention to the comma, would you change you mind....???
ming2 ke3 ming2,
ming2 = name
ke3 = able
ke3 ming2 = nameable
Correction:
wu2 ming2 = the nameless
you3 ming2 = the named
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CD speaks doesn't know.
TTC knows doesn't speak. |
Edited by - ChiDragon on 06/01/2010 5:25:21 PM |
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david
USA
1398 Posts |
Posted - 06/01/2010 : 6:59:41 PM
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quote:
[i]Originally posted by jimclatfelter[/i]
故 常 無 欲 以 觀 其 妙。
gu4 chang2 wu2, yu4 yi3 guan1 qi2 miao4;
THUS ALWAYS NONEXISTENCE DESIRE TO SEE ITS MYSTERY
Look at nonexistence if you wish to see its essence.
常 有 欲 以 觀 其 徼。
chang2 you3, yu4 yi3 guan1 qi2 jiao3.
ALWAYS EXISTENCE DESIRE TO SEE ITS FORMS
Look at existence if you wish to see its appearance.
Note 2
wu2 and you3 = nonexistence and existence
miao4 and jiao3 = essence and appearance
Are these the the two poles of Dao? To me they are. Wang Bi seems to look at it the same way. I know some of you do not go along with this interpretation (Nina?). Others do (Rene?). For me this is one of the core messages of the DDJ.
I always struggle to translate my feeling of these lines but I like what you did using "essence" and "appearance". While I have in my personal notes "essence" to explain 'Miao', I never tried it in a translation.
For you, is it 'the essence of non-existence' or is 'existence the essence of non-existence' or what? (I agree with the two poles example so that is why I ask this question; to confirm your equating 'essence' somehow to 'non-existence' in some way).
You use the word "Look". I think that "apprehend" or "grasp" may be valid with the idea of "appearance". I think a visual and mental image comes through with the latter. Food for thought.
When I researched 'Jiao' I found it's meaning to include "border" (like a frontier) or "boundary". I used the word "boundary" but mostly because I was borrowing from the Huainanzi which has the image of the cosmological emergence from a primordial state (Wu in my mind) to the boundary of space-time (You in my mind). But I think it's a little forced when I look back; particularly seeing your use of "appearance" says it nicely. |
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Nina
USA
6392 Posts |
Posted - 06/01/2010 : 7:08:18 PM
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Hi Jim-
I finally had some time to respond to one of your DDJ translations, and this is the one I clicked on. Thanks for offering them up here at DIO..... and for asking for feedback. I did that many times with my own translations. I found insights and made changes because of some of the suggestions, but disregarded others. It's fun sorting through the various responses you get, huh? 
Here's some of my feedback......
As for the first 2 lines, I kind of get what you're trying to say, but I don't think "upon" works for ke3.
If you look at the opposites you're trying to point out in that chapter, maybe see the first 2 lines in the same way.
Dao that is "accepted" as Dao (by those who claim to know what it is?) isn't the constantly changing Dao.
Just like.......
Words that are "accepted" as words (trying to make them fit into a mental category) aren't the things represented by the words.
...... But I don't want to put words into your mouth!
You know I don't agree with the idea of existence and non-existence. Hehe.
How could one "look at" non-existence?
I think those lines tie in with the first 2 lines........
Look at the names of things to find out more about them.
Look at things without thinking about their names to discover more delightful mysteries about them.
As for the last line......
眾妙之門。
zhong4 miao4 zhi1 men2.
ALL MYSTERY XXX GATE
The gate to all essence.
I don't see where you find "essence" in that?
zhong4 (many, a group, a crowd)
miao4 (subtlety, nuances)
zhi1 ('s - denoting possessive)
men2 (gate, outer door, entrance)
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jimclatfelter
USA
1026 Posts |
Posted - 06/01/2010 : 7:29:01 PM
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Thanks for all the comments. I will consider all this tonight and post some reactions tomorrow. I really appreciate the comments, and I'm willing, of course, to make changes.
Jim
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ChiDragon
USA
2863 Posts |
Posted - 06/02/2010 : 08:51:07 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by David
You use the word "Look". I think that "apprehend" or "grasp" may be valid with the idea of "appearance". I think a visual and mental image comes through with the latter. Food for thought.
欲 以 觀:
desire to see
desire to look
desire to observe
would like to see
would like to look
would like to observe
quote:
Originally posted by David
When I researched 'Jiao' I found it's meaning to include "border" (like a frontier) or "boundary". I used the word "boundary" but mostly because I was borrowing from the Huainanzi which has the image of the cosmological emergence from a primordial state (Wu in my mind) to the boundary of space-time (You in my mind). But I think it's a little forced when I look back; particularly seeing your use of "appearance" says it nicely.
徼(Jiao3): boundary is a good and proper translation.
An object must reach it final form(boundary) or limitation, in order, for one to see, look or observe.
Huainanzi was using classic text for interpreting the DDJ if one really can understand classic text. Otherwise, it is a very good reference for studying the DDJ.
故 常 無, 欲 以 觀 其 妙。
gu4 chang2 wu2, yu4 yi3 guan1 qi2 miao4
常 無: always none.
LaoTze implies 'invisible' when he said 'wu', in this chapter, rather than nonexistence.
妙(Miao4): 'subtlety' is a better translation than 'mystery', here, IMO.
But my final translation for this line was:
Therefore, if always invisible, would grok its quale.
My thought was if something is existed but invisible, one can only grok its characteristics.
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CD speaks doesn't know.
TTC knows doesn't speak. |
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ChiDragon
USA
2863 Posts |
Posted - 06/02/2010 : 09:11:18 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Nina
You know I don't agree with the idea of existence and non-existence. Hehe.
How could one "look at" non-existence?
Wow...Nina
I am so glad that you have a logical mind.....
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CD speaks doesn't know.
TTC knows doesn't speak. |
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david
USA
1398 Posts |
Posted - 06/02/2010 : 10:26:38 AM
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quote:
[i]Originally posted by ChiDragon[/i]
故 常 無, 欲 以 觀 其 妙。
gu4 chang2 wu2, yu4 yi3 guan1 qi2 miao4
妙(Miao4): 'subtlety' is a better translation than 'mystery', here, IMO.
But my final translation for this line was:
Therefore, if always invisible, would grok its quale.
your just combining my two thoughts into one usage as 'grok its quale'.
Grok can mean apprehend or grasp; Quale can mean [universal] essence [from a thing] |
Edited by - david on 06/02/2010 10:27:00 AM |
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jimclatfelter
USA
1026 Posts |
Posted - 06/02/2010 : 10:29:34 AM
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Verse 1 (revised)
A Dao that can be described is not the constant Dao.
A name that can be given is not the constant name.
Nonexistence names the origin of heaven and earth.
Existence names the mother of all things.
Observe nonexistence if you wish to see its essence.
Observe existence if you wish to see its appearance.
These two have separate names but a common origin.
Call them both deep:
Depth upon depth,
The gateway to all mystery.
Okay, I've made some changes. The first two lines are still parallel. I went back to 'can be' for ke3. It's common and traditional, and my attempt to revise it was sloppy.
David, I changed 'look at' to 'observe.' I want to keep the visual flavor.
Nina asks, How could one "look at" non-existence? One could look at one's own facelessness and call it nonexistence or, as CD prefers, invisibility. To me that is our essence, identical in each of us, constant and unchanging (chang2).
Nina, how do you get 'constantly changing' in this line? : Dao that is "accepted" as Dao (by those who claim to know what it is?) isn't the constantly changing Dao. The Zhendic dictionary has : cháng : always; ever; often; frequently; common; general; constant. Existence is constantly changing. Nonexistence remains constant. What is there in nonexistence that could change?
CD, yes, the depth is subtle and mysterious. In verse 6, would you say the subtle female? or the subtle feminine? I like subtlety too. Either word works for me. I was trying to be consistent with verse 6.
Thanks for all the suggestions. I don't think I have the second two lines are compatible with the first wow -- as I have them. I suppose I'll have to try a more conventional version of the second pair of lines.
All for now,
Jim
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ChiDragon
USA
2863 Posts |
Posted - 06/02/2010 : 11:12:49 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by david
故 常 無, 欲 以 觀 其 妙。
gu4 chang2 wu2, yu4 yi3 guan1 qi2 miao4
Therefore, if always invisible, would grok its quale.
your just combining my two thoughts into one usage as 'grok its quale'.
Grok can mean apprehend or grasp; Quale can mean [universal] essence [from a thing]
David...
I am glad that we came to an agreement on this translation. Finally, it took me three to four years to find the right words, to come up for this phrase, that are the most appropriate for the translation of this line.......
Jim....
Your translations are getting close. I'm glad that you are making progress.....
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CD speaks doesn't know.
TTC knows doesn't speak. |
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david
USA
1398 Posts |
Posted - 06/02/2010 : 11:25:25 AM
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quote:
[i]Originally posted by jimclatfelter[/i]
[br]Verse 1 (revised)
Nonexistence names the origin of heaven and earth.
Existence names the mother of all things.
One issue is whether to use "names" here just because it is used in the previous line, since all use "Ming" (名). In your revised version, you use a different word for "Miao" (妙) in two places (essence and mystery). So you have a precedent if you want to use something other than "words". Designates, refers to, etc.
quote:
[i]Originally posted by jimclatfelter[/i]
Observe nonexistence if you wish to see its essence.
Observe existence if you wish to see its appearance.
You can also turn it around:
if you wish to see its essence observe nonexistence
if you wish to see its appearance observe nonexistence
Other variations on "see" since 'observe' feels redundant.
if you wish to behold its essence observe nonexistence
if you wish to behold its appearance observe nonexistence
-----
One thing I like about some of your observations on the DDJ is that you often go outside of common conventional thought and come up with a simple and clever description. It seems here you want to strike a more conventional tone. I'd love to hear something really unconventional as a translation if you had one. Even if it's just a stream of though on this chapter. You shared the idea of the "poles" are important here; anything else?
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david
USA
1398 Posts |
Posted - 06/02/2010 : 11:28:45 AM
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quote:
[i]Originally posted by ChiDragon[/i]
[br]quote:
Originally posted by david
故 常 無, 欲 以 觀 其 妙。
gu4 chang2 wu2, yu4 yi3 guan1 qi2 miao4
Therefore, if always invisible, would grok its quale.
your just combining my two thoughts into one usage as 'grok its quale'.
Grok can mean apprehend or grasp; Quale can mean [universal] essence [from a thing]
David...
I am glad that we came to an agreement on this translation. Finally, it took me three to four years to find the right words, to come up for this phrase, that are the most appropriate for the translation of this line.......
Except almost nobody will understand that meaning "Grok the Quale" which renders it only useful for you. |
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ChiDragon
USA
2863 Posts |
Posted - 06/02/2010 : 11:37:33 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by jimclatfelter
CD, yes, the depth is subtle and mysterious. In verse 6, would you say the subtle female? or the subtle feminine? I like subtlety too. Either word works for me. I was trying to be consistent with verse 6.
In verse 6, I would translate it as "the metaphorical female", instead of "the subtle female". If we follow LaoTze's writing pattern, I wouldn't abide one definition of each character throughout the text of the DDJ. I will translate the same character with a different meaning within context.
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CD speaks doesn't know.
TTC knows doesn't speak. |
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ChiDragon
USA
2863 Posts |
Posted - 06/02/2010 : 11:43:26 AM
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David: "Except almost nobody will understand that meaning "Grok the Quale" which renders it only useful for you."
Do you understand others' translations, or the DDJ itself....??? It was not called 'esoteric' for nothing you know. At least, just between you and me, you understood what "Grok the Quale" means now....
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CD speaks doesn't know.
TTC knows doesn't speak. |
Edited by - ChiDragon on 06/02/2010 11:51:08 AM |
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david
USA
1398 Posts |
Posted - 06/02/2010 : 11:59:26 AM
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quote:
[i]Originally posted by ChiDragon[/i]
At least, just between you and me, you understood what "Grok the Quale" means now....
true... and I am more sure than ever I would never use that phrase |
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ChiDragon
USA
2863 Posts |
Posted - 06/02/2010 : 12:05:00 PM
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I only used, once, in Chapter 1 myself also. Maybe never again.....
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CD speaks doesn't know.
TTC knows doesn't speak. |
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jimclatfelter
USA
1026 Posts |
Posted - 06/02/2010 : 1:38:07 PM
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Verse 1
A Dao that can be described is not the constant Dao.
A name that can be given is not the constant name.
Nonexistence names the origin of heaven and earth.
Existence names the mother of all things.
Observe nonexistence if you wish to see its essence.
Observe existence if you wish to see its appearance.
These two have separate names but a common origin.
Call them both deep:
Depth upon depth,
The gateway to all mystery.
David Wrote: I'd love to hear something really unconventional as a translation if you had one. Even if it's just a stream of thought on this chapter. You shared the idea of the "poles" are important here; anything else?
Okay, here's a stream of thought. Not a translation!!!
When the Dao is put into words, it's not the true and unchanging Dao. It's not the fact of Dao. It's just talk.
Give the Dao a name if you want to, but it's just a nickname. The true "name" of the Dao has nothing to do with words.
The source and ground of our perception of heaven and earth is our own faceless nonexistence.
Existence is all that appears (manifests) in this ground.
Observe your own faceless nonexistence (invisibility) to see the essence, the core, the mystery.
Observe the manifest and dynamic existence clearly on display right in front of you. Observe what appears.
Essence and appearance, nonexistence and existence -- they are both views of a single presence, your presence, Dao's presence.
They are both deep.
Appearance (dynamic and ever-changing) extends outward to the farthest reaches of the universe. (Depth or height?)
Essence (constant and unchanging) extends inward to the depths of our being.
Our faceless openness is the gateway to all marvels, all wonder, all life.
Jim
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david
USA
1398 Posts |
Posted - 06/02/2010 : 2:09:58 PM
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jim... that's really great... I'm going to merge your stream of thought with some new ideas. I'll go really unconventional and let you get back to convention !
A Dao that can be talked is not the unchanging Dao.
A name that can be nicknamed is not the unchanging name [of Dao].
Nonexistence is the foundation of the origin of heaven and earth.
Existence is the manifestation of the mother of all things.
Observe [your] nonexistence if you wish to see its essence.
Observe [your] existence if you wish to see its appearance.
These two have separate names of a singular presence.
Call them profound beyond reach
Depth upon depth,
The gateway to all mystery and marvel.
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jimclatfelter
USA
1026 Posts |
Posted - 06/02/2010 : 2:35:28 PM
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Observe [your] nonexistence if you wish to see its essence.
Observe [your] existence if you wish to see its appearance.
I like these lines, David.
Jim
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ChiDragon
USA
2863 Posts |
Posted - 06/02/2010 : 3:20:46 PM
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Ok.....guys
LaoTze described 'Wu' as the invisible state for Tao. How would you describe the nonexistence state for Tao in your case....???
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CD speaks doesn't know.
TTC knows doesn't speak. |
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jimclatfelter
USA
1026 Posts |
Posted - 06/02/2010 : 3:38:02 PM
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Invisible for WU is okay by me. Can you see the invisible? Can you see through it? I say yes to both. What is the opposite of invisible? Can we call YOU the visible state? Appearances are visible. The manifest state is the visible state. There are lots of words to choose from. Existence and nonexistence mean the same YOU and WU to me. So do being and non-being.
Jim |
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Topic |
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Verse 1
