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david
USA
1398 Posts |
 Posted - 06/02/2010 : 3:56:14 PM
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Invisible, intangible, indistinct, incorporeal, nothingness, negativity, non-existence, non-manifest, non-being... whatever works.
And that might explain why almost all early writers on the DDJ wrote commentaries to it. To explain the meaning further according to how they saw the words. |
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ChiDragon
USA
2863 Posts |
Posted - 06/02/2010 : 3:58:34 PM
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You see, my problem is in classic text, 'Wu' means 'None'.
'None' was treated as a proper name given to Tao when Tao is invisible. It is not absolute 'zero' nor it doesn't exist. It was just invisible and has a high potential power to create.
In your case, 'nonexistence' was not a proper name in context; and it is also absolute 'zero'.
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CD speaks doesn't know.
TTC knows doesn't speak. |
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david
USA
1398 Posts |
Posted - 06/02/2010 : 4:05:25 PM
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quote:
[i]Originally posted by ChiDragon[/i]
In your case, 'nonexistence' was not a proper name in context; and it is also absolute 'zero'.
What case?
Observe [your] nonexistence if you wish to see its essence. ?? |
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ChiDragon
USA
2863 Posts |
Posted - 06/02/2010 : 4:08:55 PM
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Oh...yes, I was talking to Jim...
"Nonexistence names the origin of heaven and earth."
Is 'nonexistence' absolute ZERO.....???
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CD speaks doesn't know.
TTC knows doesn't speak. |
Edited by - ChiDragon on 06/02/2010 4:12:59 PM |
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david
USA
1398 Posts |
Posted - 06/02/2010 : 4:15:38 PM
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Not when applied to Dao. I don't treat the word by itself but in relation to what it's applied... when I apply any of these to Dao, they are roughly the same.
And this is Jim's thread and that is the word so far HE has choosen, although other words have been mentioned...
So I am following Jim's thought process; that is why I asked for HIS stream of thought... so I could come up with something I thought appealed to HIM...
I don't care too much about the classic text pronoun since I said I would try something unconventional. Maybe give it a try yourself.
If HE changes words, then I'm happy to change with it to help him arrive at something he likes.
I'll now turn it back over to HIM. |
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jimclatfelter
USA
1026 Posts |
Posted - 06/02/2010 : 4:17:25 PM
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What is absolute zero? It's a temperature, isn't it? What do you mean by absolute zero? It doesn't mean much in English, as far as I know.
Jim |
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searching
United Kingdom
947 Posts |
Posted - 06/02/2010 : 4:37:53 PM
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quote:
[i]Originally posted by david[/i]
[br]Invisible, intangible, indistinct, incorporeal, nothingness, negativity, non-existence, non-manifest, non-being... whatever works.
And that might explain why almost all early writers on the DDJ wrote commentaries to it. To explain the meaning further according to how they saw the words.
Why can't all those words apply to something that no longer exists?
Is that out of the question?
I apply them to what mu describes as memes and also referencing ancestors who had relevance. |
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ChiDragon
USA
2863 Posts |
Posted - 06/02/2010 : 5:08:45 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by jimclatfelter
[br]What is absolute zero? It's a temperature, isn't it? What do you mean by absolute zero? It doesn't mean much in English, as far as I know.
Jim
How about if I rephrase 'absolute zero' to 'absolutely nothing'......???
Is nonexistence means absolutely nothing....???
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CD speaks doesn't know.
TTC knows doesn't speak. |
Edited by - ChiDragon on 06/02/2010 5:10:59 PM |
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jimclatfelter
USA
1026 Posts |
Posted - 06/02/2010 : 5:54:07 PM
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Yes, Aaron, that's the sense of it. I'm just trying to use language as close to the original as I can manage. And I'm not nearly qualified to do that. Still, I'm attempting it. At the very least, I will become more familiar with the Chinese characters.
Jim |
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Twinner
USA
322 Posts |
Posted - 06/02/2010 : 5:56:47 PM
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quote:
[i]Originally posted by jimclatfelter[/i]
[br]Yes, Aaron, that's the sense of it. I'm just trying to use language as close to the original as I can manage. And I'm not nearly qualified to do that. Still, I'm attempting it. At the very least, I will become more familiar with the Chinese characters.
Jim
I understand. I want to talk to you about that, but I understand it isn't the purpose of this thread. I'm going to delete my translation and start it in a new thread. Also I'm going to start a thread about the purpose of your translation. I'd like to learn more about that.
Aaron
"Our own self-love draws a thick veil between us and our faults." -Lord Chesterfield |
Edited by - Twinner on 06/02/2010 5:57:40 PM |
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Nina
USA
6392 Posts |
Posted - 06/02/2010 : 7:13:14 PM
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quote:
[i]Originally posted by jimclatfelter[/i]
Nina asks, How could one "look at" non-existence? One could look at one's own facelessness and call it nonexistence or, as CD prefers, invisibility. To me that is our essence, identical in each of us, constant and unchanging (chang2).
Nina, how do you get 'constantly changing' in this line? : Dao that is "accepted" as Dao (by those who claim to know what it is?) isn't the constantly changing Dao. The Zhendic dictionary has : cháng : always; ever; often; frequently; common; general; constant. Existence is constantly changing. Nonexistence remains constant. What is there in nonexistence that could change?
Jim-
I'm using the original character that was used in the earlier texts - 恆 heng2 - before heng2 was replaced in all texts by chang2 out of respect to King Heng.
CD and I have gone over this many times (and he's probably gritting his teeth right now  ). CD thinks heng2 and chang2 both mean the same thing, but the earlier (Guodian and Mawangdi) texts used both characters in different places, so I think there must be a difference between them.
If we take the first lines of the DDJ to mean that Dao is constant and doesn't change, that can influence our interpretations of the rest of the chapters, huh?
It seems to me that the DDJ shows so many instances of how Dao is mutable - that to say it is constant (unchanging) seems erroneous.
Anyway.......
Seeing it in that light might provide more fuel for your (and others') concept of non-existence? Are you suggesting that Dao is non-existent?
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jimclatfelter
USA
1026 Posts |
Posted - 06/02/2010 : 7:30:42 PM
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Hi Nina,
Thanks for the explanation. I understand what you are saying. To me Dao is both existent and nonexistent, both yin and yang, both wu and you, both this and that. Yes, the DDJ shows the mutable side of Dao too.
If you can suggest a verse where the mutable side of Dao is dominant, I will try that one next.
Jim
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ChiDragon
USA
2863 Posts |
Posted - 06/02/2010 : 8:03:22 PM
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Nina: "Are you suggesting that Dao is non-existent?"
I think not. IMO He just can't come up with the right word....
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CD speaks doesn't know.
TTC knows doesn't speak. |
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david
USA
1398 Posts |
Posted - 06/02/2010 : 8:12:57 PM
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quote:
[i]Originally posted by ChiDragon[/i]
I think not. IMO He just can't come up with the right word....
Why does everyone's translation need to meet your approval and word choice? You really need to let it go.
I feel you have used up your life lines but your the only one who doesn't realize it. |
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ChiDragon
USA
2863 Posts |
Posted - 06/02/2010 : 8:33:45 PM
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Nina: "Are you suggesting that Dao is non-existent?"
Why would she questioned that....???
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CD speaks doesn't know.
TTC knows doesn't speak. |
Edited by - ChiDragon on 06/02/2010 8:38:20 PM |
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Nina
USA
6392 Posts |
Posted - 06/03/2010 : 5:09:23 PM
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quote:
[i]Originally posted by jimclatfelter[/i]
[br]Hi Nina,
Thanks for the explanation. I understand what you are saying. To me Dao is both existent and nonexistent, both yin and yang, both wu and you, both this and that. Yes, the DDJ shows the mutable side of Dao too.
If you can suggest a verse where the mutable side of Dao is dominant, I will try that one next.
You said it quite well, Jim. It seems to me you've already said that Dao is mutable - as it can change or morph into anything.
That's why I have trouble with these translations:
Jim: "A Dao that can be described is not the constant Dao."
david: "A Dao that can be talked is not the unchanging Dao."
Aaron: "If one can call it Dao, it is not the unchanging Dao."
CD: "Tao that can be spoken is not the eternal Tao."
Of those, I like CD's the best, as something that's eternal still has the possibility of changing. Your use of the word constant makes me think of something that's constantly the same.
You might check out DDJ 14?
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david
USA
1398 Posts |
Posted - 06/03/2010 : 5:37:03 PM
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I prefer "eternal" also for the use of "Heng". I only used a word from Jim's stream of consciousness.
But, prior to all things when it's just a Wu-state (or Wu Ji state)... there is yet no 'changing' going on since nothing exists which can change; Only things 'change', not Dao. It's principle of generative ability allows the ten thousand things to change. That would be the only justification I can think to apply 'unchanging' [to the Wu-state of Dao].
What I think I hear from you is that you like the continuity of Dao (whether Wu-state or You-state) and not apply what might be an attribute of Dao at a given 'state' ? |
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jimclatfelter
USA
1026 Posts |
Posted - 06/03/2010 : 6:23:31 PM
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Here's a question. Is there anything in your life that has never changed, that has remained constant since you can remember?
Jim |
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ChiDragon
USA
2863 Posts |
Posted - 06/03/2010 : 6:51:30 PM
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Here is how I am looking at it. In the Wu-state of Tao, the ten thousand things do not exist. During the changing process of Tao, from the Wu-state to the You3-state, the ten thousand things came into existence. Hence, You3 is the mother of all things.
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CD speaks doesn't know.
TTC knows doesn't speak. |
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jimclatfelter
USA
1026 Posts |
Posted - 06/03/2010 : 8:03:34 PM
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| I agree, CD, but is this happening now or did it only happen in the past? Jim |
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Verse 1
