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rene
811 Posts |
 Posted - 06/03/2010 : 10:08:35 PM
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quote:
[i]Originally posted by jimclatfelter[/i]
[br]I agree, CD, but is this happening now or did it only happen in the past? Jim
My take is past, now, perpetually and this is the eternal aspect of Tao. The reverting nature; wu and you, unboundaried. Both aspects, same time, always.
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Every action, and non-action, is one of simultaneous creation and destruction. Such is the way of Tao. |
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searching
United Kingdom
947 Posts |
Posted - 06/04/2010 : 12:06:48 AM
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quote:
[i]Originally posted by rene[/i]
[br]quote:
[i]Originally posted by jimclatfelter[/i]
[br]I agree, CD, but is this happening now or did it only happen in the past? Jim
My take is past, now, perpetually and this is the eternal aspect of Tao. The reverting nature; wu and you, unboundaried. Both aspects, same time, always.
Mine too, continually evolving. |
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ChiDragon
USA
2863 Posts |
Posted - 06/04/2010 : 08:31:42 AM
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Jim.....
Once upon a time, there was absolutely nothing except the invisible Tao. Tao was blended, into form, by chaos and became visible. In the event, Tao started to split, the lighter part rises and became Heaven; the heavier part precipitated and became Earth. Then, Tao engendered one; one engendered two; two engendered three; three engendered the ten thousand things.
rene and searching...
EXACTLY...........
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CD speaks doesn't know.
TTC knows doesn't speak. |
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ChiDragon
USA
2863 Posts |
Posted - 06/04/2010 : 08:54:42 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by jimclatfelter
Invisible for WU is okay by me. Can you see the invisible? Can you see through it? I say yes to both. What is the opposite of invisible? Can we call YOU the visible state? Appearances are visible. The manifest state is the visible state. There are lots of words to choose from. Existence and nonexistence mean the same YOU and WU to me. So do being and non-being.
Jim
One can only see the invisible state by grokking.
One can see the manifest state by our visual eyes.
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CD speaks doesn't know.
TTC knows doesn't speak. |
Edited by - ChiDragon on 06/04/2010 08:56:23 AM |
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jimclatfelter
USA
1026 Posts |
Posted - 06/04/2010 : 09:14:23 AM
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Wu = Nothing = Constant Dao
Nothing is, and Nothing was,
And Nothing ever will be.
And when the world has lost its buzz,
Nothing's gonna still be.
That's my take on the constant Dao, Wu Dao, Yin Dao.
For CD: Thanks for the explanation. This is a creation story, right? Do you believe the story is true in a literal sense? Heavier parts becoming Earth jibes with current science. Do you think this verse (and verse 25) is a creation story?
Jim |
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ChiDragon
USA
2863 Posts |
Posted - 06/04/2010 : 09:39:02 AM
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Jim....
An ancient native scholar, Huainanzi interpreted the DDJ with his explanation written in classic text. That was how he interpreted Chapter 25. Chapter 25 seems to me LaoTze described how Tao was came into being to create the universe; and Chapter 42 was the creation of all things.
Let's not say believing in anything, in a literal sense, to be objective; rather that's how I was learned from the descriptions of the DDJ.
Edited to add:
Jim: "That's my take on the constant Dao, Wu Dao, Yin Dao."
FYI: "Constant Dao" is ok for proper Chinese, but 'Wu Dao' was negated Tao to mean "non virtuous".
"Yin Dao" in English, literally, you just turned Dao into a feminine figure. As a matter of fact, in native meaning, it is a technical term for 'vagina'.....
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CD speaks doesn't know.
TTC knows doesn't speak. |
Edited by - ChiDragon on 06/04/2010 09:59:34 AM |
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jimclatfelter
USA
1026 Posts |
Posted - 06/04/2010 : 09:50:45 AM
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| Good, CD. I understand your viewpoint now. Jim |
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ChiDragon
USA
2863 Posts |
Posted - 06/13/2010 : 12:31:39 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Nina
Jim-
I'm using the original character that was used in the earlier texts - 恆 heng2 - before heng2 was replaced in all texts by chang2 out of respect to King Heng.
CD and I have gone over this many times (and he's probably gritting his teeth right now ). CD thinks heng2 and chang2 both mean the same thing, but the earlier (Guodian and Mawangdi) texts used both characters in different places, so I think there must be a difference between them.
细说老子·知其雄，守其雌
知其雄，守其雌，为天下溪。
为天下溪，常德不离，
复归于婴儿。知其白，守其辱，
为天下谷。为天下谷，常德乃足，复归于朴。
朴散则为器，圣人用之，则为官长。故大制不割。
——第二十八章
Chapter 28
Interpreted by 傅佩荣(FuPeiRong)：
知道雄强的好处，却守住雌柔的位置，这样可以作为天下的仆役。
作为天下的仆役，就不会离开恒久的德，
再由此回归婴儿的状态。
知道光明的好处，却守住暗昧的位置，这样可以作为天下的山谷。
作为天下的山谷，才可以满足恒久的德，再由此回归真朴的状态。
真朴的状态分散为具体的器物，圣人依循这个原则，建立了管理与领导。
所以完善的政治是不去割裂的。
Classic text:
常德不离，
Modern interpretation:
就不会离开恒久的德，
Then, cannot depart from the eternal virtue.
常(chang2) = 恒;恆久(heng2 jiu3)
PS This is my ultimatum.
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CD speaks doesn't know.
TTC knows doesn't speak. |
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lienshan
Denmark
655 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2010 : 1:53:57 PM
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quote:
[i]Originally posted by jimclatfelter[/i]
[br]Here's a question. Is there anything in your life that has never changed, that has remained constant since you can remember?
Here's an answer: my heart is beating constantly.
And that's what the old pictograph HENG is showing: a heart moving between the two shores of a river. |
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ChiDragon
USA
2863 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2010 : 2:23:17 PM
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lienshan...
Where have you been...???
How are you....???
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CD speaks doesn't know.
TTC knows doesn't speak. |
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lienshan
Denmark
655 Posts |
Posted - 07/07/2010 : 02:18:26 AM
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I've been offline and I'm OK
quote:
[i]Originally posted by jimclatfelter[/i]Bradford provided possible for definitions for ke3 in the first line:
(to) accept, accommodate, adapt, approve, admit, allow, ask, bear (with), befit, call (for, out, up), consent (to), incite, incur, indicate, invite, permit, prescribe, submit, suit, tolerate, (s, ed, ing); (to be) able, about, acceptable, accommodating, all right, amenable, appropriate, apt, asked, befitting, called (for), calling, competent, conducive, convenient, capable, deserving, due, easy, enough, fit, fitting, friendly, good, inclined, inviting, likely, possible, potential, proper, ready, right, satisfactory, sufficient, suggesting, suitable, suited, welcome, willing, worthy (of, to, for); (that, which) can, could, may, might, should (be); can (then) be; can/may ... be; to need/be worth doing; easily; -able. Subjunctive mood.
My use of upon doesn't seem to follow from any of those definitions.
David thought it important to preserve the parallel structure of the first two lines, thus my attempt to do so. Maybe I will hit upon a way to keep the parallel structure with a word that fits one of the definitions better. I hope my subconscious is working on it. Any suggestions?
The first line is a nonsence line, while the second line makes sence.
The parallel structure indicates, that the first line makes sence, when read as the second line.
A simple translation of the second line is:
The name name isn't a concrete name.
An example:
We all have a name but nobody has the name Mr Name or Mrs Name.
Chair is a concrete name and table is a concrete name, but name isn't a concrete name.
A parallel translation of the first line is thus:
The way way isn't a concrete way. |
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lienshan
Denmark
655 Posts |
Posted - 07/07/2010 : 2:12:27 PM
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A little more correct ke3 translation of line 2 might be:
the name fitting/matching a name isn't a constant name
The meaning is still the same as explained in my previous posting. The first ming means the word 'name' in general, while the second ming means a specific 'name'. A specific name is a constant (defined) name. Examples: the name 'chair' is something to sit upon and the name 'table' is something to sit at. But the name 'name' is a generalisation of all specific names, and is thus not constant, because new specific names appear and others disappear. That's explained in the following lines in the discussion of the terms wu ming and you ming.
dao te dao fei chang/heng dao
The first dao of a parallel reading means dao in general, while the second dao means a specific dao, that'll say the word dao / the written pictograph dao. The latter is constant, because it's defined as specific sounds when pronounced and as specific strokes when written. The first isn't constant and thus undescribable. |
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jimclatfelter
USA
1026 Posts |
Posted - 07/07/2010 : 3:27:52 PM
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Hi Lienshan,
I changed those two lines from the original "Dao upon Dao." I don't know if you would consider it an improvement. I'm also not sure how your definition could be used in these first two lines. What would it mean?
Verse 1 (revised)
A Dao that can be described is not the constant Dao.
A name that can be given is not the constant name.
Nonexistence names the origin of heaven and earth.
Existence names the mother of all things.
Observe nonexistence if you wish to see its essence.
Observe existence if you wish to see its appearance.
These two have separate names but a common origin.
Call them both deep:
Depth upon depth,
The gateway to all mystery.
Jim
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lienshan
Denmark
655 Posts |
Posted - 07/07/2010 : 3:56:37 PM
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Hi Jim
I'm not sure, that your second line express the 'correct' meaning?
There's a break of the parallel reading indicated by the character gu4 (thus/consequently) in the beginning of the 5th line, so the ming's of 3th and 4th are too meant to be replaced by dao's 
wu ming tian di zhi shi
you ming wan wu zhi mu
should therefore be translated so it matches the inplicit parallel:
wu dao tian di zhi shi
you dao wan wu zhi mu
The pointe is in my reading, that the wu and you characters define the ming characters of these two lines as specific names, because wu dao meaning 'without dao' only is correct, when it's the spoken/written dao (explained in line 2).
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jimclatfelter
USA
1026 Posts |
Posted - 07/07/2010 : 5:20:54 PM
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It's interesting, Lienshan. Since I'm using the Wang Bi version, I have not been making changes to the text. I'd be interested in knowing how you put it into English.
Jim |
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lienshan
Denmark
655 Posts |
Posted - 07/08/2010 : 12:33:42 PM
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My english is as you know not good enough to produce a 'poetic' but a 'logic' translation:
2. The name called name isn't a constant name
3. The origin of everything had no name
4. The mother of everyone had a name
5. Consequently
and the parallel goes like this:
1. The way called way isn't a constant way
3. The origin of everything had no way
4. The mother of everyone had a way
5. Consequently |
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lienshan
Denmark
655 Posts |
Posted - 07/08/2010 : 2:20:32 PM
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1. The way called Dao isn't a constant way
2. The name called names isn't a constant name
3. The origin of everything had no name
4. The mother of everyone had a name
5. Consequently
6. Constancy is no desire when observing the quality
7. Constancy is a desire when observing the quantity
Translating miao4 as 'quality' and jiao3 as 'quantity' is probably not the best choice, but the structure of the translation is logic, because the meaning of the lines 6 and 7 is to discuss the important term chang2 'constant' of the lines 1 and 2. |
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ChiDragon
USA
2863 Posts |
Posted - 07/08/2010 : 3:35:15 PM
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lieshan(立山）...
Welcome back. Ｉ'm glad you are still alive and back to the DDJ again.....
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CD speaks doesn't know.
TTC knows doesn't speak. |
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lienshan
Denmark
655 Posts |
Posted - 07/08/2010 : 4:09:53 PM
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Hi ChiDragon ... it's good to look at the DDJ with fresh eyes again 
The last lines of chapter 1 are reflections over the ambiguous word 'constant' and are not that important. The first lines translated in my previous posting are very important, because they are arguing against the confucian zhengming (rectification of names) policy. Confucius said: "If names be not correct, language is not in accordance with the truth of things." Chapter 1 is the philosophical proof, that the term "names" itself can't be rectified, because it isn't a constant name!
I read the keyword 'constant' as meaning both limited and unlimited depending of how I read and interprete, while t.ex. 'eternal' is a 'rectified' translation in my opinion. The chinese character is 'chang' in the received versions and 'heng' in the Mawangdui versions. I think that both characters are ambigouos and can be translated 'constant'. |
Edited by - lienshan on 07/08/2010 4:13:19 PM |
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lienshan
Denmark
655 Posts |
Posted - 07/10/2010 : 01:43:50 AM
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The first part of chapter 1 is structured as three pairs of two lines.
Each pair has more characters in common. A few characters differ:
1. dao
2. ming
3. wu shi
4. you mu
5. wu miao
6. you jiao
The odd lines: the way (1) - has no origin (3) - has no quality (5)
The even lines: names (2) - has a mother (4) - has a quantity (6)
The Mawangdui versions have the characters 'wan wu' in both line 3 and 4.
The received versions have 'tian di' instead of 'wan wu' in line 3.
The terms mean 'everything' but the best translation of the first is probably 'the universe' because it expresses the difference between the unit 'all' and the collection 'every' ... that'll say like the difference between origin and mother ... like the difference between quality and quantity ... and like the difference between 'to have no' and 'to have'.
1. The way called Dao isn't a constant way
2. The name called names isn't a constant name
3. The origin of the universe has no name
4. The mother of everything has a name
0. Consequently
5. Constant is no desire when observing the quality
6. Constant is a desire when observing the quantity |
Edited by - lienshan on 07/10/2010 01:45:58 AM |
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Verse 1
