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lienshan
Denmark
655 Posts |
 Posted - 07/12/2010 : 10:07:50 AM
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quote:
[i]Originally posted by jimclatfelter[/i]
Observe nonexistence if you wish to see its essence.
Observe existence if you wish to see its appearance.
These two have separate names but a common origin.
Call them both deep:
I have a problem identifying "These two" when reading your translation?
Line 7 litterally translated: These two ones alike appear yet different names
"These two ones" (zhe3 = pronoun used after numbers in place of a thing) refers in my opinion to the two "constant" characters of line 5 and 6. They look alike but have different meanings: The first constant means "continually" and the latter constant means "following a rule".
1. The way called Dao isn't a constant way
2. The name called names isn't a constant name
3. The origin of the universe has no name
4. The mother of everything has a name
0. Consequently
5. Constant is no desire when observing the subtle
6. Constant is a desire when observing the border
7. These two constants appear alike but are different names |
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lienshan
Denmark
655 Posts |
Posted - 07/12/2010 : 2:56:56 PM
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1. The way called Dao isn't a constant way
2. The name called names isn't a constant name
3. The origin of the universe has no name
4. The mother of everything has a name
0. Consequently
5. Constant is no desire when observing the wonderfulness
6. Constant is a desire when observing the border
7. These two ones are alike outside yet different names
8. Alike darkness of meaning
9. as well as darkness of darkness
10. The Gate of multitude wonderfulness
The three last lines are pure irony. The Gate is the Ji Gate of Linzi, where the scholars of the Jixia Academy started their discussions in the late 4th century BC. The last line is a contradictory nickname for the confucian school and their rectification of names theory:
Confucius said: "If names be not correct, language is not in accordance with the truth of things."
Laozi demonstrates in this chapter 1 the nonsense of this theory using the name 'constant' as an example. 'multitude' is a constant as well as 'wonderfulness' is constant. Both are correct, but not at the same time, because the meaning of the name 'constant' depend of how one read (observe) the character in a context. The keyword in this connection is the character you4 in the 9th line, which is indicating two contradictory ideas and is translated 'as well as'. |
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lienshan
Denmark
655 Posts |
Posted - 07/13/2010 : 02:35:52 AM
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quote:
[i]Originally posted by Nina[/i]
I'm using the original character that was used in the earlier texts - 恆 heng2 - before heng2 was replaced in all texts by chang2 out of respect to King Heng.
CD and I have gone over this many times (and he's probably gritting his teeth right now  ). CD thinks heng2 and chang2 both mean the same thing, but the earlier (Guodian and Mawangdi) texts used both characters in different places, so I think there must be a difference between them.
If we take the first lines of the DDJ to mean that Dao is constant and doesn't change, that can influence our interpretations of the rest of the chapters, huh?
It seems to me that the DDJ shows so many instances of how Dao is mutable - that to say it is constant (unchanging) seems erroneous.
The pictograph heng2 shows a heart and a boat between two riverbanks. A picture of the heart rate. The character has two meanings. The heart rate goes on and on meaning constant (forever). The heart rate can be counted per unit of time meaning a constant (a standard). heng2 has thus one of these two contradictionary meanings in a concrete context, but the meaning 'contradictionary' without a concrete context. The character chang2 too means constant (forever) and a constant (a standard) but lack the contradictionary meaning without a concrete context. That's why all old DDJ1 line 1 translations are contradictionary. The translaters didn't know, that 'dao ke dao fei chang dao' should be read 'the way named Dao isn't a contradictionary way', untill exavacations forty years ago revealed, that the original line 1 was 'dao ke dao fei heng dao'. |
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ChiDragon
USA
2863 Posts |
Posted - 07/13/2010 : 12:07:18 PM
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'dao ke dao fei chang dao'
'dao ke dao fei heng dao'
'chang' and 'heng' are used as an adjective in these two concrete contexts. They were not and cannot be meant as "a standard". As a matter of fact, these two characters are used exactly with the same concrete meaning. It is because they are the same and interchangeable but in different form.
PS.....
Please read my last response to Nina, Page 3 in this thread, on the subject matter....
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CD speaks doesn't know.
TTC knows doesn't speak. |
Edited by - ChiDragon on 07/13/2010 12:09:02 PM |
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lienshan
Denmark
655 Posts |
Posted - 07/13/2010 : 2:56:30 PM
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Line 3: wu ming = origin
Line 4: you ming = mother
Line 5: wu yu = no longing
Line 6: you yu = the object of longing
The character yu means 'desire', but it has like the characters heng and chang both meaning 'constant' two different meanings. Desire means both 'a wish or longing' and 'the object of longing'.
I agree with you, ChiDragon, that the heng/chang characters of the first two lines are adjectives, but are the heng/chang characters of the lines 5 and 6 too adjectives with the same meaning, if yu is meant to be read in two different ways? That'll say as observing and as the observed, indicated by the character 'guan' later on in the two lines. If so ... how would you translate these two phrases:
Line 5: chang wu yu
Line 6: chang you yu |
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ChiDragon
USA
2863 Posts |
Posted - 07/13/2010 : 3:26:14 PM
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Line 5: chang wu yu
Line 6: chang you yu
5. Always have no desire
6. Always have desire
5. Always without desire
6. Always with desire
PS......
Incorrectly translated.....
Line 3: wu ming = origin
Line 4: you ming = mother
Correctly translated....
Line 3: wu ming = no name; nameless
Line 4: you ming = have name
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CD speaks doesn't know.
TTC knows doesn't speak. |
Edited by - ChiDragon on 07/13/2010 3:30:32 PM |
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lienshan
Denmark
655 Posts |
Posted - 07/14/2010 : 03:32:44 AM
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quote:
[i]Originally posted by ChiDragon[/i]
Line 5: chang wu yu
Line 6: chang you yu
5. Always have no desire
6. Always have desire
5. Always without desire
6. Always with desire
Always (constantly) means invariably, without variation or change
Always (constantly) means forever, without interruption
Which one of the always do you mean  |
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lienshan
Denmark
655 Posts |
Posted - 07/14/2010 : 1:50:27 PM
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I try a mix of your two suggestions: without and have.
5. Always (forever) without desire because observing its subtle
6. Always (unchanged) have desires because observing their borders
5. chang2 wu2 yu4 yi3 guan1 qi2 miao4
6. chang2 you3 yu4 yi3 guan1 qi2 jiao3
qi2 means its/their and refer to yu4 meaning desire (longing for) and desires (the objects of longing)
Desires (the objects of longing) can be changed but not be forever.
Desire (longing for) can be forever but not be changed. |
Edited by - lienshan on 07/14/2010 2:09:54 PM |
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Nina
USA
6392 Posts |
Posted - 07/14/2010 : 3:06:57 PM
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quote:
[i]Originally posted by lienshan[/i]
The pictograph heng2 shows a heart and a boat between two riverbanks. A picture of the heart rate. The character has two meanings. The heart rate goes on and on meaning constant (forever). The heart rate can be counted per unit of time meaning a constant (a standard). heng2 has thus one of these two contradictionary meanings in a concrete context, but the meaning 'contradictionary' without a concrete context. The character chang2 too means constant (forever) and a constant (a standard) but lack the contradictionary meaning without a concrete context. That's why all old DDJ1 line 1 translations are contradictionary. The translaters didn't know, that 'dao ke dao fei chang dao' should be read 'the way named Dao isn't a contradictionary way', untill exavacations forty years ago revealed, that the original line 1 was 'dao ke dao fei heng dao'.
Lienshan-
Where did you find a reference that 恆 heng2 represents the heart rate?
I think you might be a little confused about the use of "contradictory" in line 1.
非 fei1 can be translated as "contradictory", but 恆 heng2 is not.
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lienshan
Denmark
655 Posts |
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lienshan
Denmark
655 Posts |
Posted - 07/15/2010 : 02:57:01 AM
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The relevant text from the latter link above:
For the case of hexagram 'heng' () in Zhouyi, I don't think it was simplified from the hexagram 'heng wo' () on the Qin bamboo strips. It may be supporting evidence that the hexagram 'shi-he' () of Zhouyi appears to be 'shi' () in the Qin bamboo strips. Shuogua Zhuan states trigram 'xun' as a metaphor of 'wood, wind and mature women.' Obviously 'heng wo' has the meaning of 'women'. The characters 'heng wo' also appear in the text of hexagram 'gui mei' () in the Qin bamboo strips no.201, mentioned about 'heng wo' stole the immortal pills. Thus 'heng wo' should be Lady Chang-e (϶) who stole the immortality pills and ascended the moon in the ancient myth, and it is coincident to the metaphor 'women' of the trigram 'xun' according to the Shuogua zhuan. This is a strong evidence to prove that the character 'wo' is not a redundant character mis-added into the text. The same hexagram was entitled as 'heng' instead of 'heng wo' in Zhouyi. According to the interpretation of the Tuan zhuan (贫) and Xiang zhuan (), the meaning of 'heng' which means 'forever' is more abstract than the meaning of 'heng wo' of the Qin bamboo strips which just simply a name of a goddess.
According to the analysis by Professor Lin Zhong-jun, the name of the hexagram 'heng' in Zhouyi was simplified from the hexagram 'heng wo' on the Qin bamboo strips. The character 'wo' was not added by mistakes.
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What I find very intersting is the sentence:
Obviously 'heng wo' has the meaning of 'women'.
Because this inplicit connect the character 'mu3' (mother) in DDJ1 line 4 with the phrase 'heng2 ming2' in line 2. |
Edited by - lienshan on 07/15/2010 03:03:06 AM |
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ChiDragon
USA
2863 Posts |
Posted - 07/15/2010 : 11:23:59 AM
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lienshan.....
You are still confused as hell as before you left the forum..........
There is no lead way for me to get into this discussion........
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CD speaks doesn't know.
TTC knows doesn't speak. |
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lienshan
Denmark
655 Posts |
Posted - 07/15/2010 : 2:38:25 PM
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quote:
[i]Originally posted by ChiDragon[/i]
There is no lead way for me to get into this discussion........
Not having a lead way is the disadvantage of not being confused as hell
By the Way ... have you read this 'school of names' article:
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/school-names/#2
Six of the keywords appear as characters in DDJ1
tong1 the same
yi4 different
ke2 admissible
fei1 not-this
wu2 lacking
you3 having |
Edited by - lienshan on 07/15/2010 2:46:52 PM |
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Nina
USA
6392 Posts |
Posted - 07/15/2010 : 3:36:24 PM
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lienshan-
It's fun exploring other ancient texts to find out more about the characters. I did that too.
A couple of things........
The symbol of a heart appears (on the left) in 恆 heng2, but it also appears in many other characters. Don't exclude the other symbols in each character - in order to get a bigger picture.
Different Chinese characters were chosen for each of the chapters of the Yi Jing at one point to give each hexagram a proper name. 恆 heng2 was chosen for Hexagram 32 - with the meanings Duration, Long Lasting, Enduring.
Maybe you misread what Lin Zhong-jun said? This is from your quote by him:
"I don't think it was simplified from the hexagram 'heng wo' "
You might like this:
According to the I Ching:
Héng, Long Lasting, Duration (Hexagram 32)
"There are two horizontal lines in the ideograph of this gua (hexagram), one at the top and the other at the bottom. These two lines represent the two shores of a river. Between the shores there are two images - a boat on the right, and a heart on the left. Three people are sailing across the river in the boat. In ancient China, crossing a river was not an easy task. An old Chinese saying describes the situation: 'People in the same boat share weal and woe.' Sharing weal and woe means working together in full cooperation with a united purpose - with one heart. For this reason the ancient sage placed a heart beside the boat. Originally, the boat between two shores indicated the distance from this shore to that shore. Later on, the meaning was extended to suggest simply from here to there and, finally, from beginning to end. When the sage drew a heart beside the boat, the meaning was further extended to include everlasting."
- The Complete I Ching by Master Alfred Huang
But I get your point ..... I think.
There was a difference between 恆 heng2 and 常 chang2 back then. The character 常 chang2 existed at the time, but the scholars who chose characters to represent the hexagrams of the I Ching preferred 恆 heng2.
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lienshan
Denmark
655 Posts |
Posted - 07/16/2010 : 02:43:12 AM
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The ancient chinese philosophers used this formula: ke3 X fei3 Y
T.ex. can be (ke3) white horse? this-not (fei1) horse!
The DDJ1 X ke3 X fei1 Y is not a formula but a common sentence:
The way 'ke dao fei heng dao' named 'ke ming fei heng ming' is without name the origin of the universe and with name the mother of everything.
Explanation:
dao is without name dao, but a way, a school of thought, when named.
The use of the formula 'ke X fei Y' identifies the way named as the School of names.
The school is nicknamed 'Gate' in the last line of the chapter. |
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lienshan
Denmark
655 Posts |
Posted - 07/16/2010 : 03:46:38 AM
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the lines 5 and 6 can be read as one line:
Thus constantly without desire
because seeing its subtle constantly having desires
because their distinctions are observed.
and the line 7 goes like this:
These two are the same appearance but different named |
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lienshan
Denmark
655 Posts |
Posted - 07/16/2010 : 04:25:59 AM
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The two are the two 'heng'
'heng' in connection with 'yu' desire is subjective (I desire)
'heng' in connection with 'yu' desires is objective (the desired)
'heng' without connection is the name of hexagram 32
'heng wo' (constant I) is the original name expressing its subjective nature
'heng' (constant) is the received name expressing its objective nature
The question is if the terms 'heng dao' and 'heng ming' are either subjective or objective terms  |
Edited by - lienshan on 07/16/2010 04:28:55 AM |
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ChiDragon
USA
2863 Posts |
Posted - 07/16/2010 : 10:54:35 AM
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Not having a lead way is the disadvantage of not being confused as hell
難 得 糊 塗
nan2 de2 hu2 tu2
It was hard to be confused, but it's nice to be confused once awhile.....
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CD speaks doesn't know.
TTC knows doesn't speak. |
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lienshan
Denmark
655 Posts |
Posted - 07/18/2010 : 01:17:09 AM
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quote:
[i]Originally posted by ChiDragon[/i]
It was hard to be confused, but it's nice to be confused once awhile.....
OK ... here's a little more confusing stuff:
7. These pairs which are alike outside yet different names
8. Alike darkness of meaning
9. as well as darkness of darkness
10. The Gate of multitude subtlety
Line 7 might refer to 'everything' that is expressed by the pair of characters 'wan wu' (tenthousand things)
'wan' is descibed as 'darkness of meaning' in line 8.
'wu' is described as 'darkness of darkness in line 9.
'wan' is described as 'multitude' in line 10.
'wu' is described as 'subtlety' in line 10.
The inplicit meaning is to put 'wan wu' into the philosophical formula 'ke ming fei heng ming' in line 2:
'ke wu fei wan wu' ... can be things? this-not everything!
and correspondingly:
'ke miao fei zhong miao' ... can be subtlety? this-not multitude subtlety
That'll say that everything doesn't exist according to the School of names formula.
The line 10 nickname of the School of names is thus following its own formula:
The School of no existence |
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lienshan
Denmark
655 Posts |
Posted - 07/18/2010 : 05:32:21 AM
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ZhuangZi (chapter 2): To use a finger as a representation to show what's a finger and what's not a finger, isn't as good as using something that's not a finger as a representation of what's a finger and what's not a finger.
To use a horse as a representation to show what's a horse and what's not a horse, isn't as good as using something that's not a horse as a representation of what's a horse and what's not a horse.
Heaven and earth are fingers. The ten thousand things are horses.
line 3: The origin of Heaven and earth
line 4: The mother of the ten thousand things |
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Verse 1
