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lienshan
Denmark
655 Posts |
 Posted - 07/18/2010 : 07:50:22 AM
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My pointe is, that the ZhuanZi statement 'heaven earth one finger; tenthousand things one horse' refers to the lines 3 and 4 of DDJ1, because there's no explanation of the statement in his chapter 2.
http://www.wfu.edu/~moran/zhexuejialu/Zhuang_Zi_2.html
It's too the only piece of text with commentary in the translation above, because the statement in the context is impossible to understand without knowledge of how LaoZi used 'tian di' and 'wan wu' as finger and horse in his arguementation against the School of Names in DDJ chapter 1. |
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Nina
USA
6392 Posts |
Posted - 07/18/2010 : 6:02:06 PM
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lienshan-
Yes, I get your point. I agree that the Laozi was taking a jab at the School of Names in DDJ 1.
But I think the Zuangzi can be understood quite nicely without having to refer to the Laozi. Just like the Laozi can be understood quite nicely without having to refer to the Yi Jing.
Be careful with those translations and commentaries by college students. He didn't even include the whole section in his translation of chapter 2.
You can find some links to better translations on the internet at this page:
http://terebess.hu/english/tao.html
And....... you can't find everything on the internet.
Here's a commentary on those lines by Fung Yu-Lan from his book A Taoist Classic: Chuang-Tzu
"In order to show that there is no distinction between right and wrong, there is nothing better than illustrating one thing by another. In illustrating one thing by another, they all consider themselves to be right and others to be wrong. Since they all agree that all others are wrong, so in the world there can be no right. Since they all agree that they themselves are all right, so in the world there can be no wrong. How can it be shown that this is so? If the right is really absolutely right, there should be none that considers it to be wrong. If the wrong is really absolutely wrong, there should be none that considers it to be right. The fact that there are [sic] uncertainty between right and wrong and the confusions in distinctions shows that the distinction of right and wrong is due to partiality of view, and that things are really in agreement. In our observation, we see this truth everywhere. Therefore, the perfect man, knowing that the universe is a finger and all things are a horse, thus rests in great peace. All things function according to their nature. They all enjoy themselves. There is no distinction between right and wrong."
- Kuo Hsiang
"This is an illustration of the theory that to attack one system of right and wrong with another is not so good as to attack the whole system of rights and wrongs with the system of nondistinction between right and wrong. The argument about the finger and the horse was one used by the School of Logicians. The logicians said there is an absolute distinction between right and wrong; the Taoists said there is no such absolute distinction. The one school emphasized the distinctions or the differences between things; the other school stressed nondistinction or the sameness. Hence the two schools were always in dispute with each other."
- Fung Yu-Lan
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lienshan
Denmark
655 Posts |
Posted - 07/19/2010 : 02:49:42 AM
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quote:
[i]Originally posted by Nina[/i]
I agree that the Laozi was taking a jab at the School of Names in DDJ 1.
And was maybe giving those translating 'tian di' as 'heaven and earth' an uppercut 
Zhuangzi wrote that 'tian di was one finger' and 'wan wu was one horse'.
I think, that the DDJ1 lines 3 and 4 can be read/translated in two ways:
Treated as one finger and one horse:
3. Without name is the origin of everything
4. With name is the mother of everything
Not treated as one finger and one horse:
3. Without the name Heaven is the origin of earth
4. With the name Tenthousand is the mother of things
Line 7 indicates, that both readings/translations are grammatically possible:
7. These pairs which are alike outside yet different names
The lines 8 and 9 correspond to the meaning and lack of meaning of the lines 3 and 4:
8. Alike darkness of meaning
9. as well as darkness of darkness
'Without the name Heaven is the origin of earth' is meaningful
'With the name Tenthousand is the mother of things' is darkness |
Edited by - lienshan on 07/19/2010 02:56:43 AM |
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lienshan
Denmark
655 Posts |
Posted - 07/19/2010 : 04:31:36 AM
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An alternative reading is to treat 'tian di' as 'not one finger' but 'wan wu' as 'one horse':
1+2. The Way 'ke dao fei heng dao' named 'ke ming fei heng ming'
3+4. is without the name Heaven the origin of the earth with the name Mother of everything.
5+6. Consequently .................
7. These pairs which are alike outside yet different names
8+9. Alike darkness of meaning as well as darkness of darkness
10. The Gate of .........
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Edited by - lienshan on 07/19/2010 04:45:56 AM |
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lienshan
Denmark
655 Posts |
Posted - 07/19/2010 : 07:43:01 AM
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quote:
[i]Originally posted by jimclatfelter[/i]
此 兩 者 同 出 而 異 名，
ci3 liang3 zhe3 tong2, chu1 er2 yi4 ming2,
THESE TWO XXX SAME ORIGIN BUT DIFFERENT NAME
These two have separate names but a single origin.
chu1 :
Go out, exit. / Outside, without. / Take up a post. / Exile, banish. / Abandon (one's wife). / Free, release. / Give out, hand over. / Give, offer. / Send out, distribute. / Exceed. / Appear, emerge. / Create, make. / Produce, cause to grow. / Bear, give birth. / Origin, place of birth. / Part of an object which extends outwards. / Measure word: times, occurrences. / Measure word: section.
shi3 in line 3 means 'origin' (beginning).
Translating chu1 as 'origin' (place of birth) too, can't thus be the best choice 
'Part of an object which extends outwards' / 'Outside' / 'Appear' seems to be the main theme of chu1
此 兩 者 同 出 而 異 名，
ci3 liang3 zhe3 tong2 chu1 er2 yi4 ming2
THESE TWO THAT TOGETHER APPEAR BUT DIFFERENT NAMES |
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lienshan
Denmark
655 Posts |
Posted - 07/19/2010 : 08:47:06 AM
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quote:
[i]Originally posted by jimclatfelter[/i]
同 謂 之 玄。
tong2 wei4 zhi1 xuan2.
CALL BOTH THEM PROFOUND
Call them both deep.
wei4 :
To (when speaking to someone). / Say, speak. / Call, name. / Meaning, what is meant. / Discuss, comment on (a person). / How?
zhi1 :
personal pronoun: he, she, it,
sign for genitive, third person objective case ( it / her / him / them ),
possessive particle of this, that, these,
to arrive at, to go to, to leave for
同 謂 之 玄。
tong2 wei4 zhi1 xuan2
TOGETHER MEANING GOES TO DARKNESS
quote:
[i]Originally posted by jimclatfelter[/i]
玄 之 又 玄，
xuan2 zhi1 you4 xuan2,
PROFOUND XXX MORE PROFOUND
Depth upon depth,
you4 :
and, also, again, in addition to, moreover, further,
indicating repetition or continuation, again and again,
indicating the simultaneous existence of several conditions or characteristics: as well as, tall and big
indicating aditional ideas or after-thought
indicating two contradictory ideas: and yet
zhi1 :
personal pronoun: he, she, it,
sign for genitive, third person objective case ( it / her / him / them ),
possessive particle of this, that, these,
to arrive at, to go to, to leave for
玄 之 又 玄，
xuan2 zhi1 you4 xuan2
DARKNESS GOES TO FURTHER DARKNESS
The problem of these two lines is how to read and translate the character zhi1 
It's usually treated as a possessive particle, but can meaning and darkness possess darkness or further darkness
That's why I think, that 'go to' or 'arrive at' might be a better choise |
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lienshan
Denmark
655 Posts |
Posted - 07/19/2010 : 2:35:34 PM
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The character zhi1 has a different position in the line 9 compared to the lines 8 and 10:
8. tong2 wei4 zhi1 xuan2
9. xuan2 zhi1 you4 xuan2
10. zhong4 miao4 zhi1 men2
Both zhi1 of the lines 8 and 10 can be translated 'to go to'.
I found the function of the line 9 zhi1 in this translation:
zhi1 :
Towards; go to. / Demonstrative pronoun: this, these. / Third person pronoun: him, her, it. / Auxiliary word: of. / Auxiliary word: used between subject and predicate, cancels independence of a clause. / Auxiliary word: used in a sentence for aesthetic purpose only, no meaning.
The line 9 is a dependent clause explaining the meaning of 'the darkness' in the line 8:
8. The same meaning goes to the darkness
9. (the darkness while darkness)
10. The multitude subtleties goes to the Gate
you4 :
Hand. / Again, once more. / Moreover. / And, while. Expresses two situations happening at once or sequential action. / And yet. Expresses contrast. / Offer wine. / Forgive.
I read 'the darkness' in line 8 as corresponding to the line 3 character shi3 (origin).
I read the clause of line 9 as contrary to 'ke dao fei heng dao' and 'ke ming fei heng ming'.
I read 'The multitude subtleties' as corresponding to the line 4 phrase 'wan wu' (Tenthousand things). |
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Nina
USA
6392 Posts |
Posted - 07/19/2010 : 5:29:35 PM
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That's interesting stuff, lienshan. You had my head spinning a bit reading it, but it could work the way you presented it.
Personally, I don't like moving the characters around like that to make it fit with some other ideology.
I see 天 地 tian1di4 as tiandi - the universe including the heavens and the earth. The DDJ has used those characters individually in other chapters, but when they appear in that way - I think it refers to the universe.
But then.......
I use the Mawangdui A and B versions of those lines, and they don't use 天 地 tian1di4. They use 萬 物 wan4wu4 in both lines.
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lienshan
Denmark
655 Posts |
Posted - 07/20/2010 : 10:21:14 AM
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quote:
[i]Originally posted by Nina[/i]
Personally, I don't like moving the characters around like that to make it fit with some other ideology.
I move the characters of the last four lines around like that
to make it fit with the ideology of the first lines 
ci3 liang3 (zhe3 tong2 chu1 er2 yi4 ming2) tong2
wei4 zhi1 xuan2
My focus is here on the character chu1 :
Go out, exit. / Outside, without. / Take up a post. / Exile, banish. / Abandon (one's wife). / Free, release. / Give out, hand over. / Give, offer. / Send out, distribute. / Exceed. / Appear, emerge. / Create, make. / Produce, cause to grow. / Bear, give birth. / Origin, place of birth. / Part of an object which extends outwards. / Measure word: times, occurrences. / Measure word: section.
One of the keywords in the lines 5 and 6 is guan1 'to observe' or 'to see'.
These two (that together appear however different named) together
meaning goes to darkness
Heaven and Earth are thus 'two' observed/seen with eyes!
But while darkness ... then we observe/see 'one' darkness  ... everything! ... 'one finger' |
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lienshan
Denmark
655 Posts |
Posted - 07/20/2010 : 11:06:03 AM
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quote:
[i]Originally posted by Nina[/i]
I use the Mawangdui A and B versions of those lines, and they don't use 天 地 tian1di4.
They use 萬 物 wan4wu4 in both lines.
They too lack four characters in four last lines to make it fit with the use of 'wan wu' in line 3
I stick to 'tian di' in this tread, because Jim is translating the Wang Bi version  |
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lienshan
Denmark
655 Posts |
Posted - 07/20/2010 : 2:03:21 PM
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OK ... you're the moderator ... let's go offtopic and talk Mawangdui 
The lines 7 and 8 of the Mawangdui versions lack the characters in bold:
ci3 liang3 zhe3 tong2 chu1 er2 yi4 ming2 tong2 wei4 zhi1 xuan2
ci3
this, these, if so, in this case
er2
and, yet, but, however
zhi1
to go to, genetive, Auxiliary word: used between subject and predicate, cancels independence of a clause
xuan2
profound, darkness
In this case two (those which together appear however same meaning of different names) darkness
(the darkness while darkness) |
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lienshan
Denmark
655 Posts |
Posted - 07/20/2010 : 2:28:06 PM
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In this case two (those which together appear however same meaning of different names) darkness.
The darkness (while darkness) is the Gate of all subtleties. |
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lienshan
Denmark
655 Posts |
Posted - 07/21/2010 : 02:23:38 AM
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zhi1 :
Towards; go to. / Demonstrative pronoun: this, these. / Third person pronoun: him, her, it.
Auxiliary word: of.
Auxiliary word: used between subject and predicate, cancels independence of a clause.
Auxiliary word: used in a sentence for aesthetic purpose only, no meaning.
The two zhi1 characters could have been used to express the inadmissible term "two darknesses":
ci3 liang3 zhe3 tong2 chu1 er2 yi4 ming2 tong2 wei4 zhi1 xuan2 xuan2 zhi1 you4 xuan2 zhong4 miao4 zhi1 men2
They are remarkable seen in a row of characters and make no sense when treated as usual.
Used as modern "" treat the two xuan2 characters as visual symbols of two darknesses.
In this case two, those which together appear however same meaning of different names, "darkness darkness":
While darkness and all subtleties of the Gate.
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Edited by - lienshan on 07/21/2010 02:35:33 AM |
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jimclatfelter
USA
1026 Posts |
Posted - 07/21/2010 : 5:03:30 PM
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My original attempt was:
Dao upon dao is not the constant Dao.
Name upon name is not the constant name.
This was not very popular.
In light of the extensive discussion of this verse, which I don't claim to understand very well, I wonder if you think this is better.
Dao as a dao is not the constant Dao.
Name as a name is not the constant name.
Or, for Nina:
Dao as a dao is not the lasting Dao.
Name as a name is not the lasting name.
I wonder where David is. He is the one who thought that the three daos should be preserved here.
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Nina
USA
6392 Posts |
Posted - 07/21/2010 : 6:25:23 PM
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Hey, Jim.......
I think the word Dao should be used 3 times in that line too, but I never said it should be lasting Dao. If I did, it was just to help you in the direction you were going with your own translation.
To me...... DDJ 1 shows how silly it is for anyone to try to intellectually understand what Dao is. My choice for the first line is:
Dao may be accepted as "Dao", but that would conflict with the constant motion of Dao.
lienshan-
If you point with 2 fingers, what are you pointing at?
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jimclatfelter
USA
1026 Posts |
Posted - 07/21/2010 : 6:51:04 PM
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My bad, Nina. i thought you liked eternal and lasting better than constant. I'll stick with constant.
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lienshan
Denmark
655 Posts |
Posted - 07/22/2010 : 01:54:19 AM
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The visual approach of the last four lines tells me too read the first lines the visual way:
ke dao fei chang dao
without name (wu ming) is the first part of the philosophical formula (ke dao)
with name (you ming) is the second part of the philosophical formula (fei chang dao)(the name is chang)
wu ming tian di zhi shi means:
The nouns tian di is without name (an adjective) in the beginning that'll say in the position before tian di
you ming wan wu zhi mu means:
The adjective wan is the name of the noun wu (like chang of the term chang dao)
The position is mu (mother) that'll say the first part of the term wan wu (like chang of the term chang dao)
The consequence is this philosophical formula:
ke tian di fei wan wu
The last lines tell, that both tian di and wan wu are "while darkness", that'll say the same darkness.
That'll say, that the formula ke tian di fei wan wu is fei (wrong)
That'll say, that the formula ke ming fei chang ming is fei (wrong)
That'll say, that the formula ke dao fei chang dao is fei (wrong) |
Edited by - lienshan on 07/22/2010 02:14:19 AM |
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lienshan
Denmark
655 Posts |
Posted - 07/22/2010 : 04:20:17 AM
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quote:
[i]Originally posted by jimclatfelter[/i]
[br]My bad, Nina. i thought you liked eternal and lasting better than constant. I'll stick with constant.
Hi Jim ... why not try Laozi's own definitions of the character chang (heng)
The mothers (mu3)(the first characters of each line):
dao4 ke3 dao4 fei1 chang2 dao4
ming2 ke3 ming2 fei1 chang2 ming2
wu2 ming2 tian1 di4 zhi1 shi3
you3 ming2 wan4 wu4 zhi1 mu3
gu4 chang2 wu2 yu4 yi3 guan1 qi2 miao4
chang2 you3 yu4 yi3 guan1 qi2 jiao3
ci3 liang3 zhe3 tong2 chu1 er2 yi4 ming2
tong2 wei4 zhi1 xuan2
xuan2 zhi1 you4 xuan2
zhong4 miao4 zhi1 men2
Form together this definition of chang (heng):
dao4 ming2 wu2 you3 gu4 chang2 ci3 tong2 xuan2 zhong4
Dao named have-no have consequently chang in-this-case same dark multitude
But the text is also (as I try to explain) meant to be divided/read/translated maybe like this:
dao4 ke3 dao4, fei1 chang2 dao4 ming2 ke3 ming2 fei1 chang2 ming2
wu2 ming2 tian1 di4 zhi1 shi3 you3 ming2 wan4 wu4 zhi1 mu3
gu4 chang2 wu2 yu4 yi3 guan1 qi2 miao4 chang2 you3 yu4 yi3 guan1 qi2 jiao3
ci3 liang3 zhe3 tong2 chu1 er2 yi4 ming2 tong2 wei4 zhi1 xuan2 xuan2 zhi1
you4 xuan2 zhong4 miao4 zhi1 men2
dao4 ke3 wu2 ming2 gu4 chang2 ci3 liang3 you4 xuan2
Dao admissible have-no name consequently chang in-this-case two while darkness |
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lienshan
Denmark
655 Posts |
Posted - 07/22/2010 : 07:01:18 AM
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The mothers (mu3)(the first characters of each line) highlight the difference between the Received versions and the Mawangdui versions, caused by the use of 'tian1 di4' respective 'wan4 wu4' in line 3:
dao4 ke3 dao4 fei1 chang2 dao4
ming2 ke3 ming2 fei1 chang2 ming2
wu2 ming2 tian1 di4 zhi1 shi3
you3 ming2 wan4 wu4 zhi1 mu3
gu4 chang2 wu2 yu4 yi3 guan1 qi2 miao4
chang2 you3 yu4 yi3 guan1 qi2 jiao3
ci3 liang3 zhe3 tong2 chu1 er2 yi4 ming2
tong2 wei4 zhi1 xuan2
xuan2 zhi1 you4 xuan2
zhong4 miao4 zhi1 men2
dao4 ming2 wu2 you3 gu4 chang2 ci3 tong2 xuan2 zhong4
Dao named have-no have consequently chang in-this-case same dark multitude
dao4 ke3 dao4 (ye3) fei1 heng2 dao4 (ye3)
ming2 ke3 ming2 (ye3) fei1 heng2 ming2 (ye3)
wu2 ming2 wan4 wu4 zhi1 shi3 (ye3)
you3 ming2 wan4 wu4 zhi1 mu3 (ye3)
gu4 heng2 wu2 yu4 (ye3) yi3 guan1 qi2 miao3
heng2 you3 yu4 (ye3) yi3 guan1 qi2 suo3 jiao3
liang3 zhe3 tong2 chu1
yi4 ming2 tong2 wei4
xuan2 zhi1 you4 xuan2
zhong4 miao3 zhi1 men2
dao4 ming2 wu2 you3 gu4 heng2 liang3 yi4 xuan2 zhong4
Dao named have-no have consequently heng two different dark multitude |
Edited by - lienshan on 07/22/2010 07:12:36 AM |
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jimclatfelter
USA
1026 Posts |
Posted - 07/22/2010 : 09:57:57 AM
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Hi Lienshan,
This is my first time around with the Chinese characters. I'm not able to follow all you're saying. I have to stay with a simpler approach. To me chang means unchanging or constant or everlasting or eternal. I like unchanging or constant the best. The center of our being never changes. It's a constant.
Dao as a dao is not the unchanging Dao.
Dao as a dao = dao as a path or way or method to follow. That's not the unchanging Dao. The unchanging Dao is the empty center of awareness or presence. The character itself shows a single eye. That's the unchanging Dao, our open and invisible window through which we see the world. In other traditions it's been called the single eye and the third eye. Laozi doesn't call it that, but the character for Dao indicates just that -- one eye.
Dao as a path is shown in the character for Dao as a foot, a path to follow. This dao is not Dao. Any path one follows is not ziran. Unchanging Dao is applied spontaneously -- without foreknowledge.
Laozi is saying that if we don't lose sight [ insight #26126; mng ] of Dao, the single eye, what follows will be what is natural for us. In other words, see and see what happens. Stay centered { #22830; y#257;ng ] in the unchanging Dao, and trust that what follows comes from your true De, your true inner nature. The Dao is your center and everything that appears and occurs in it.
Those are the definitions I am going by. Dao is the simplest [no]thing possible.
Jim |
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Verse 1
