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lienshan
Denmark
655 Posts |
 Posted - 07/22/2010 : 12:55:11 PM
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quote:
[i]Originally posted by jimclatfelter[/i]
I'm not able to follow all you're saying.
Hi Jim ... and I'm not able to follow all you're saying ... 
http://chinese.dsturgeon.net/text.pl?node=11566&if=en
http://chinese.dsturgeon.net/dictionary.pl?if=en&char=%E7%99%BD%E9%A6%AC%E9%9D%9E%E9%A6%AC%E2%80%9D%EF%BC%8C%E5%8F%AF%E4%B9%8E
bai ma fei ma ke hu ..... the opening line of Gongsun's White Horse Dialogue
hu ke ma fei bai ma ..... the structure when the characters are reverted
dao ke dao fei chang dao
ming ke ming fei chang ming
The Way proposition Dao is incompatible with constant Dao
is named proposition names incompatible with a constant name.
ke3 = proposition
fei1 = incompatible with
proposition names refers to the proposition white horse (bai ma)(two names)
incompatible with a constant name refers to horse (ma)(one name)
The structure of the DDJ1 opening lines is thus like the "a white horse is not a horse" line but reverted,
while the meaning of the DDJ1 line 2 corresponds to the structure of the "a white horse is not a horse" line. |
Edited by - lienshan on 07/22/2010 12:59:42 PM |
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jimclatfelter
USA
1026 Posts |
Posted - 07/22/2010 : 1:18:55 PM
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Hi Jim ... and I'm not able to follow all you're saying.
Laozi leaves room for many views. I don't understand all of them. I don't know if anyone here understands my view. That's no reason for abandoning it though. Maybe some people will get what I am saying when I add a commentary to the translation.
Jim |
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lienshan
Denmark
655 Posts |
Posted - 07/22/2010 : 3:21:35 PM
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Maybe some people will get what I am saying when I add no commentary to the translation
The Way proposition Dao is incompatible with constant Dao
is named proposition names incompatible with a constant name.
The absent adjective is the antecedent of heaven and earth.
The present adjective is the initial of all things.
Consequently ...........
...............................
In this case two, those which together appear however same meaning of different names, "darkness darkness":
While darkness and all subtleties of the Gate. |
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jimclatfelter
USA
1026 Posts |
Posted - 07/22/2010 : 3:31:09 PM
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| Sorry, Lienshan, I don't get your meanings, and I don't get your jokes, if they are jokes. |
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lienshan
Denmark
655 Posts |
Posted - 07/22/2010 : 4:19:05 PM
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The present adjective is the initial all = unchanging = constant
The absent adjective is the antecedent  = forever = constant
While darkness = both forever and unchanging = constant |
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jimclatfelter
USA
1026 Posts |
Posted - 07/22/2010 : 4:39:17 PM
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darkness = both forever and unchanging = constant
That I get. |
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lienshan
Denmark
655 Posts |
Posted - 07/23/2010 : 02:17:47 AM
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Hi Jim ... I changed two words inspired by your comment 
The Way proposition Dao is incompatible with eternal Dao
is named proposition names incompatible with an unchanging name.
The absent adjective is the antecedent of heaven and earth.
The present adjective is the initial of all things.
Consequently ...........
...............................
In this case two, those which together appear however same meaning of different names, "darkness darkness":
While darkness and all subtleties of the Gate.
The character chang2/heng2 (constant) has a double meaning: either eternal or unchanging (time/space)
The term "while darkness" is both time/space expressing both meanings of the word "constant".
The two chang2/heng2 characters in lines 5 and 6 is probably also meant to be read as eternal respective unchanging?
"heaven and earth" (everything) are two nouns ... an adjective is absent
"all things" (everything) are an adjective + a noun ... the adjective all is present |
Edited by - lienshan on 07/23/2010 02:25:40 AM |
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lienshan
Denmark
655 Posts |
Posted - 07/23/2010 : 03:22:14 AM
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or put in simple words:
The opening lines of DDJ1 identify the Gate Ji School of Names leader Gonsun Long and his White Horse Dialogue:
a white horse is not a horse
Laozi replies: while darkness (all cats are grey in the dark) |
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lienshan
Denmark
655 Posts |
Posted - 07/23/2010 : 09:28:37 AM
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The color of the horse is identified in the lines 3 and 4 in the shape of a riddle:
Without the name the origin of heaven and earth.
With the name the mother of all things.
The answer to the riddle:
The origin of heaven and earth is the darkness, xuan, meaning both darkness and dark.
The mother of all things is the light, bai, meaning both light and white. |
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david
USA
1398 Posts |
Posted - 07/23/2010 : 11:15:06 PM
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It is once said that when Gong Sun Lung was passing the frontier, the frontier guard said: "Horses are not allowed to pass".
Gong Sun Lung replied: "My horse is white, and a white horse is not a horse". And so saying, he passed with his horse.
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This is a fairly famous exchange about "color" (white) and "form" (horse). It is more about classifications [creations] of our mind; and that two things cannot be combined to mean either one [original] in the end. Other chinese debated this as 'names being used to confuse objects'. Yet others debated this as one and the same (a [white] horse is a horse is saying the same thing once you learn to ignore the 'white'--which was felt to be the ruse].
In Lao Zi: is there color and form described? Is there a ruse employed? Maybe the two of 'wu' (xuan) and 'you' (bai) are described but Zi's ruse is paradox not logic.
I don't buy that the original meaning is as Lienshan has mentioned (and there are too many posts without just clearly stating the point--nonetheless, welcome back).
As for Dao to be represented three times; maybe we should say three meanings of Dao... but is 'ke dao' a 'white horse'? The question is really: Is 'ke' introduced to change the meaning of dao with an attribute (ie; color) or meant to compound it? In either case it could be argued it turns Dao into something other than original Dao.
Dao ke dao fei chang/heng dao
Dao as a 'replacement' Dao is not the original Dao.
Ming ke ming fei chang/heng ming
Names as a 'replacement' name is not the original name.
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lienshan
Denmark
655 Posts |
Posted - 07/24/2010 : 03:56:52 AM
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quote:
[i]Originally posted by david[/i]
It is once said that when Gong Sun Lung was passing the frontier, the frontier guard said: "Horses are not allowed to pass".
Gong Sun Lung replied: "My horse is white, and a white horse is not a horse". And so saying, he passed with his horse.
The original Gong Sun Lung words (bai ma fei ma ke hu):
a white horse not being a horse can be ?
The inplicit answer of DDJ1 (bai ma fei ma ke ma ... you xuan):
a white horse not being a horse can be a horse ... while darkness!
The reversed sentence (corresponding to the DDJ1 structure):
a horse can be a horse not being a white horse
is (opposite to the Gong Sun Lung claim) unchanging and forever true!
All names works when inserted instead of X (ming) in the formula: X ke X fei constantly X
a horse can be a horse not being constantly a horse
a name can be a name not being constantly a name
a way can be a way not being constantly a way
The last sentense only works, when dao is read/translated as a name (a way).
Line 3 points at this exception: without name the origin of heaven and earth
Dao can be dao not being constantly dao.
A name can be a name not being constantly a name.
Without a name the origin of heaven and earth.
With a name the mother of all things.
Consequently ...........
...............................
In this case two, those which together appear however same meaning of different names, "darkness darkness":
While darkness and every subtlety of the Gate. |
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lienshan
Denmark
655 Posts |
Posted - 07/25/2010 : 09:08:08 AM
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quote:
[i]Originally posted by david[/i]
I don't buy that the original meaning is as Lienshan has mentioned (and there are too many posts without just clearly stating the point--nonetheless, welcome back).
gu4 therefore, consequently, thus
This character at the beginning of line 5 tells me, that the original meaning of this and the following line cannot be understood without knowlegde of the previous four lines.
Dao can be dao not being constantly dao.
Names can be names not being constantly names.
Without a name the origin of heaven and earth.
With a name the mother of all things.
Therefore constantly
without desire (1) constantly with desire (2)
In this case two (3)
Darkness and dark while darkness.
The Gate of numerous subtleties.
I've removed the three explaining lines (1)(2)(3) in order to highlight the hardcore meaning of the text.
(1) because observing their subtlety (t.ex. the total of heaven and earth)
(2) because observing their distinction (t.ex. the border between heaven and earth)
(3) those which together appear however same meaning of different names (t.ex. heaven and earth)
without desire constantly with desire
This phrase can only be understood with knowledge of the X ke X fei constantly X formula in the lines 1 and 2 in connection with knowledge of the without/with (wu/you) definitions of the lines 3 and 4. |
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ChiDragon
USA
2863 Posts |
Posted - 07/25/2010 : 10:56:59 AM
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Without a name the origin of heaven and earth.
With a name the mother of all things.
lienshan...
Where are the verbs in these two lines....???
If a comma was placed after the first character of these two lines, how would you translate them.
3. 無，名天地之始﹔
4. 有，名萬物之母。
3. wu2, ming2 tian1 di4 zhi1 shi3;
4. you3, ming2 wan4 wu4 zhi1 mu3.
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CD speaks doesn't know.
TTC knows doesn't speak. |
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ChiDragon
USA
2863 Posts |
Posted - 07/25/2010 : 11:22:46 AM
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1. Dao can be dao not being constantly dao.
2. Names can be names not being constantly names.
Again, where are the verbs....???
Can you be more specific on the second 'dao' in line 1.
In Line 2....
Are you saying that:
Lienshan can be lienshan not being constantly name......???
Where is your sense of logic, my friend.....???....
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CD speaks doesn't know.
TTC knows doesn't speak. |
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ChiDragon
USA
2863 Posts |
Posted - 07/25/2010 : 11:35:10 AM
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The original Gong Sun Lung words (bai ma fei ma ke hu):
a white horse not being a horse can be ?
bai ma fei ma ke hu
A white horse is not a horse, can it be...????
You are trying to convey the sentence structure by introducing a line involved with a white horse. You are mix logic with sentence structure to illustrate your point. Indeed, it was confusing as hell(excuse for the four letter word). IMO Using a white horse to compare with Tao was a very poor analogy....
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CD speaks doesn't know.
TTC knows doesn't speak. |
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ChiDragon
USA
2863 Posts |
Posted - 07/25/2010 : 11:45:28 AM
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3) those which together appear however same meaning of different names (t.ex. heaven and earth)
lienshan........
Heaven and earth together appeared, however, do not have the same meaning....
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CD speaks doesn't know.
TTC knows doesn't speak. |
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ChiDragon
USA
2863 Posts |
Posted - 07/25/2010 : 12:08:40 PM
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quote:
Original posted by David
I don't buy that the original meaning is as Lienshan has mentioned (and there are too many posts without just clearly stating the point--nonetheless, welcome back).
As for Dao to be represented three times; maybe we should say three meanings of Dao... but is 'ke dao' a 'white horse'? The question is really: Is 'ke' introduced to change the meaning of dao with an attribute (ie; color) or meant to compound it? In either case it could be argued it turns Dao into something other than original Dao.
1. Dao ke dao fei chang/heng dao
Dao as a 'replacement' Dao is not the original Dao.
2. Ming ke ming fei chang/heng ming
Names as a 'replacement' name is not the original name.
lienshan....
Do you follow David's logic.....??? The second 'Dao' in line 1 and the second 'ming' in line 2 should be treated as a verb.
ke dao(可道): speakable; can be spoken.
ke ming(可名): nameable; can be named.
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CD speaks doesn't know.
TTC knows doesn't speak. |
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lienshan
Denmark
655 Posts |
Posted - 07/26/2010 : 03:37:44 AM
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quote:
[i]Originally posted by ChiDragon[/i]
In Line 2....
Are you saying that:
Lienshan can be lienshan not being constantly name......???
Where is your sense of logic, my friend.....???....
Lienshan enters a horseshop and becomes a customer.
The horse becomes a white horse as the owner of the horseshop turns on the light.
The white horse becomes a desire as the customer Lienshan begins to desire the white horse.
All names are named according to the circumstances.
Dao (without name / wu ming) is dao.
Dao (with name / you ming) is a way named according to the circumstances.
That's my reading of chapter 1 (in headlines) |
Edited by - lienshan on 07/26/2010 03:39:12 AM |
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lienshan
Denmark
655 Posts |
Posted - 07/26/2010 : 04:40:45 AM
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quote:
[i]Originally posted by ChiDragon[/i]
3) those which together appear however same meaning of different names (t.ex. heaven and earth)
lienshan........
Heaven and earth together appeared, however, do not have the same meaning....
The reading/translating problem of this line is the two tong2 characters.
tong2 means both together and same
The line refers to 'heaven and earth' 'tian di' and 'all things' 'wan wu' when read/translated as together
The line refers to 'desire' 'yu' when read/translated as same
yu4 means both 'to desire' and 'the desired' (both subject and object)
yu4 is like xuan2 meaning both dark and darkness.
Both characters are viewed this way opposite to 'tian di' and 'wan wu'.
The first are one character terms with two 'same' meanings.
The latter are two character terms with one 'together' meaning.
So you are right, my translation of this line isn't 'perfect' ... I'm working on it |
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lienshan
Denmark
655 Posts |
Posted - 07/26/2010 : 10:06:57 AM
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quote:
[i]Originally posted by ChiDragon[/i]
[br]Without a name the origin of heaven and earth.
With a name the mother of all things.
lienshan...
Where are the verbs in these two lines....???
Dao can be dao not being constantly dao.
The name can be a name not being constantly the name.
Without a name is the origin of heaven and earth.
With a name is the mother of all things.
Consequently:
Constantly without desire (1)
Constantly with desire (2)
In this case two (3)
Darkness and dark while darkness.
The Gate of numerous subtleties.
I've removed the three explaining lines (1)(2)(3) in order to highlight the hardcore meaning of the text:
The term 'constantly the name' of line 2 and the terms 'without a name' / 'with a name' of the lines 3 and 4, appear in the lines 5 and 6 in a manner, that encourage the reader to insert the terms 'without desire' and 'with desire' in line 2 instead of 'a name':
Without desire can be without desire not being constantly without desire.
With desire can be with desire not being constantly with desire. |
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Verse 1
