| Author |
 Topic  |
|
lienshan
Denmark
655 Posts |
 Posted - 07/26/2010 : 1:56:07 PM
|
gu4 consequently
yi3 makes adverb of the following verb:
guan1 adverb of to observe: observingly
qi2 connective expressing consession: even if
miao4 subtle
yi3 makes adverb of the following verb:
guan1 adverb of to observe: observantly
qi2 connective expressing choice: or
jiao3 inspecting
I think, that the above picks from the dictionaire fit the lines 5 and 6 of my way of reading:
Consequently:
Constantly without desire, observingly even if subtle.
Constantly with desire, observantly or inspecting. |
Edited by - lienshan on 07/26/2010 2:04:49 PM |
 |
|
|
jimclatfelter
USA
1026 Posts |
Posted - 07/28/2010 : 08:32:03 AM
|
Zhendic = guan1 = to look at; to watch; to observe; to behold
Mandarintools = guan1 = see, observe, view; appearance
故 常 無 欲 以 觀 其 妙。
gu4 chang2 wu2, yu4 yi3 guan1 qi2 miao4;
THUS ALWAYS NONEXISTENCE DESIRE TO SEE ITS MYSTERY
Look at nonexistence if you wish to see its essence.
常 有 欲 以 觀 其 徼。
chang2 you3, yu4 yi3 guan1 qi2 jiao3.
ALWAYS EXISTENCE DESIRE TO SEE ITS FORMS
Look at existence if you wish to see its appearance.
with desire , without desire ?
having desire, not having desire ?
These lines are about seeing, observing, watching, looking, beholding. They're not about desire.You don't have to eliminate desire to see the mystery. Anyone can see it just by looking inward, looking at what is nearest to you, at your center, at 無. You don't have to whip up desire to see the forms. You see them all the time. 有 is always on show.
The key word in these lines is guan1 and not yu4.
As I see it, of course.
edit to fix unicode |
Edited by - jimclatfelter on 07/28/2010 08:35:17 AM |
|
|
|
ChiDragon
USA
2863 Posts |
Posted - 07/28/2010 : 09:11:20 AM
|
Jim.......
I'm glad that's the way you see about 'desire' too......
-----------------------------
CD speaks doesn't know.
TTC knows doesn't speak. |
|
|
|
lienshan
Denmark
655 Posts |
Posted - 07/28/2010 : 3:41:31 PM
|
quote:
[i]Originally posted by ChiDragon[/i]
lienshan....
Do you follow David's logic.....???
The second 'Dao' in line 1 and the second 'ming' in line 2 should be treated as a verb.
Thanks for the leadway
1. ke3 marks the preceeding character as a verb.
2. chang2/heng2 are adverbs as indicated in the lines 5 and 6.
The last dao4 and ming2 in the lines 1 and 2 can thus be verbs:
Dao ke Dao fei chang Dao.
Names named Wrong are always named.
The origin of heaven and earth has no name.
The mother of all things has a name.
Explanation:
The mohists distinguished everything in either shi (right) or fei (wrong).
That'll say: the mohists named everything either Right or Wrong.
That'll say: anything named 'Wrong' has a name.
That'll say: what has no name can't be wrong. |
|
|
|
Nina
USA
6392 Posts |
Posted - 07/28/2010 : 6:48:35 PM
|
CD: "The second 'Dao' in line 1 and the second 'ming' in line 2 should be treated as a verb."
The verb is 可 ke3.
lienshan: "Names named Wrong are always named."
That's an interesting translation of 非 fei1, but it doesn't mean "wrong" in the sense you're using it. It means "contradicting." And....... that sentence doesn't make sense in English. Things are given names whether they're right or wrong? Some of them are right?
Jim-
Okay....... You seem to be happy with the "existence" / "nonexistence" thing.
Mawangdui punctuation:
故 常 無 欲 也, 以 觀 其 妙 <
gu4 chang2 wu2 yu4 ye3, yi3 guan1 qi2 miao4;
Thus always without wanting, see its subleties
常 有 欲 也, 以 觀 其 徼。
chang2 you3 yu4 ye3, yi3 guan1 qi2 jiao3.
Always with wanting, see its forms.
|
|
|
|
ChiDragon
USA
2863 Posts |
Posted - 07/28/2010 : 7:23:46 PM
|
CD: "The second 'Dao' in line 1 and the second 'ming' in line 2 should be treated as a verb."
The verb is 可 ke3.
ke + dao(可道) makes dao become 'can be spoken'.
Dao(speak) is the actual verb.
-----------------------------
CD speaks doesn't know.
TTC knows doesn't speak. |
|
|
|
lienshan
Denmark
655 Posts |
Posted - 07/29/2010 : 07:21:06 AM
|
quote:
[i]Originally posted by Nina[/i]
That's an interesting translation of 非 fei1, but it doesn't mean "wrong" in the sense you're using it. It means "contradicting." And....... that sentence doesn't make sense in English.
Thanks for the last piece of the puzzle
By logic: The first line of chapter 1 is not written in ordinary chinese language, because if so, then it wouldn't have been a riddle for thousands of years. That'll say: Laozi invented a word of his own, that can't be looked up in any dictionairy:
ke3 has primary two functions: either as 'bu ke' meaning 'cannot' or as ke3 before a verb t.ex. 'ke yu' meaning 'desirable'. That'll say: ke3 change a verb into an adverb. That'll say: ke3 ming2 means 'namable'.
fei1 is a negative meaning 'is not' in a philosophical sentence like 'a white horse is not a horse', if the subject after fei1 match one of the three mohist 'fa' (models). The term 'the constant name' match the mohist 'fa', while the term 'constantly the name' doesn't. That'll say: if chang2 isn't an adjective but an adverb, then fei1 is a negative of ke3 ming2 (namable) with the meaning 'unnamable':
The name unnamable always the name.
The word invented by Laozi is likewise 'undaoable',
if the term chang2 dao4 of the first line doesn't match the mohist fa?
Constant Dao match while constantly Dao doesn't:
Dao undaoable always Dao
quote:
[i]Originally posted by ChiDragon[/i]
Again, where are the verbs....???
Laozi wrote chapter 1 without verbs 
That'll say: Every character in chapter 1 read as a verb is misinterpreted! An example: guan1 is a verb meaning 'to observe'. The previous character yi3 means 'because' but can also have the function of turning a verb into an adverb. In a text without verbs is the meaning of yi3 guan1 therefore 'observingly' or 'observantly'.
Dao undaoable: Always Dao.
The name unnamable: Always The name.
Without name: The origin of heaven and earth.
With name: The mother of all things.
Consequently:
Always without desire: Observingly even if subtle.
Always with desire: Observantly or inspecting.
qi2 in the two last lines means 'its', when referring to a previous mentioned noun. If there is no specific noun,
then qi2 has a connective function meaning 'even if' (expressing a contrast) or meaning 'or' (expressing a choice). |
Edited by - lienshan on 07/29/2010 07:35:08 AM |
|
|
|
jimclatfelter
USA
1026 Posts |
Posted - 07/29/2010 : 08:07:04 AM
|
Observingly? Observantly?
Those words can't stand alone and have any meaning. An adverb has to modify something other than a noun. |
|
|
|
lienshan
Denmark
655 Posts |
Posted - 07/29/2010 : 10:23:59 AM
|
I accept your objection; ChiDragon is right, where are the verbs 
Dao undaoable is always Dao.
Named unnamable is always named.
Without name is the origin of heaven and earth.
With name is the mother of all things.
Consequently always without desire, because observing even if subtle.
Always with desire, because observing or inspecting.
I did too change the first and the last ming2 characters into verbs, because they are verbs,
when reading the first and last character of each line as two vertical sentences,
which works with the Mawangdui versions:
Dao named 'wu' 'you', consequently always two different darkness multitudes.
Dao named origin mother, subtle inspecting appear satisfy dark gate.
The first sentence makes sense, while the last sentence shows, that I have not yet translated some of the characters 'correct'. But the main theme is the indication, that the first and the last ming2 characters of line 2 should be translated as 'named'. |
Edited by - lienshan on 07/29/2010 10:46:31 AM |
|
|
|
lienshan
Denmark
655 Posts |
Posted - 07/29/2010 : 1:12:15 PM
|
Your preference to nonexistence and existence seems to work this way:
Dao undaoable is always Dao.
Named unnamable is always named.
A nonexistent name is the initial of Heaven and Earth.
Existence is named the mother of all things.
Consequently always nonexistent desire, because observing their subtlety.
Always existing desires, because observing their distinctions.
The two corresponding vertical sentences are:
Dao named a nonexistent existence, consequently always two different darkness multitudes.
Dao named the initial mother, subtlety distinctions appear satisfying dark gate.
OK ... Nina is too right
the first qi2 refers to Heaven and Earth,
and the second qi2 refers to all things. |
Edited by - lienshan on 07/29/2010 1:43:12 PM |
|
|
|
Nina
USA
6392 Posts |
Posted - 07/29/2010 : 5:31:40 PM
|
quote:
[i]Originally posted by ChiDragon[/i]
[br]CD: "The second 'Dao' in line 1 and the second 'ming' in line 2 should be treated as a verb."
The verb is 可 ke3.
ke + dao(可道) makes dao become 'can be spoken'.
Dao(speak) is the actual verb.
You're sticking to the modern translation of 可 ke3 as "can."
可 ke3 was also used to mean "accepted."
可道 - accepted as (the name) "Dao."
|
|
|
|
Nina
USA
6392 Posts |
Posted - 07/29/2010 : 5:42:05 PM
|
lienshan-
This:
Dao undaoable is always Dao.
Named unnamable is always named.
.......... doesn't work.
道 可 道
dao4 ke3 dao4
That doesn't say: "Dao undaoable."
非 fei1 comes after 道 可 道
|
|
|
|
ChiDragon
USA
2863 Posts |
Posted - 07/29/2010 : 6:49:58 PM
|
道 可 道
dao4 ke3 dao4
dao4 daoable.
-----------------------------
CD speaks doesn't know.
TTC knows doesn't speak. |
|
|
|
lienshan
Denmark
655 Posts |
Posted - 07/30/2010 : 12:57:18 AM
|
quote:
[i]Originally posted by Nina[/i]
This:
Dao undaoable is always Dao.
Named unnamable is always named.
.......... doesn't work.
道 可 道
dao4 ke3 dao4
That doesn't say: "Dao undaoable."
非 fei1 comes after 道 可 道
quote:
[i]Originally posted by ChiDragon[/i]
[br]道 可 道
dao4 ke3 dao4
dao4 daoable.
dao4 ke3 dao4 fei1 chang2 dao4
As ChiDragon confirms: ke3 dao4 means daoable
The characters ke3 dao4 fei1 means undaoable, if the characters chang2 dao4 aren't a 'fa'.
That'll say, there are two reading possibilities:
Dao daoable isn't a constant Dao (a constant Dao is a 'fa')
Dao undaoable is constantly Dao (constantly Dao isn't a 'fa')
named namable isn't a constant name (a constant name is a 'fa')
named unnamable is constantly named (constantly named isn't a 'fa')
Dao isn't a 'fa' according to the last line of chapter 25 |
|
|
|
lienshan
Denmark
655 Posts |
Posted - 07/30/2010 : 02:14:06 AM
|
The three 'fa' (models) are in headlines:
1. Something confirmed by authorities (sage kings)
2. Something confirmed by observation (facts)
3. Something benefitting the people (named 'The Will of Heaven' in the mohist philosophy)
The three 'fa' are in chapter 25 symbolized by man (ren), earth (di), and heaven (tian) |
|
|
|
lienshan
Denmark
655 Posts |
Posted - 07/30/2010 : 03:29:21 AM
|
An alternative is, that fei1 becomes a negative of chang2, when chang2 dao4 isn't a 'fa'?
Dao daoable is inconstant(ly) Dao = fei1 a negative of chang2
Dao undaoable is constant(ly) Dao = fei1 a negative of ke3 dao4 |
|
|
|
lienshan
Denmark
655 Posts |
Posted - 07/30/2010 : 04:17:25 AM
|
quote:
[i]Originally posted by ChiDragon[/i]
[br]道 可 道
dao4 ke3 dao4
dao4 daoable.
My reading of line 2 is:
Named unnamable is always named
If I read the first line as: Dao undaoable is always Dao, then I name Dao, according to line2 
So when Dao isn't a 'fa', and 'fei1' thus isn't the philosophical term 'is not', then 'fei1' is a negative of 'chang2'
Dao daoable is inconstantly Dao
Named unnamable is always named |
|
|
|
ChiDragon
USA
2863 Posts |
Posted - 07/30/2010 : 10:56:20 AM
|
quote:
Originally posted by Nina
quote:
Originally posted by ChiDragon
CD: "The second 'Dao' in line 1 and the second 'ming' in line 2 should be treated as a verb."
The verb is 可 ke3.
ke + dao(可道) makes dao become 'can be spoken'.
Dao(speak) is the actual verb.
You're sticking to the modern translation of 可 ke3 as "can."
可 ke3 was also used to mean "accepted." <------------Yes, it can be but not here.
可道 - accepted as (the name) "Dao." <------------ misconception
What modern translation...???
Ke3 has two meanings "can" and "accepted". These two definitions hold true at all times. One just has to know how to interpret it within context.
You are having trouble understanding the nuance in its usage. The second dao2 is a verb means 'speak'. If 可(ke2) was placed in front of the verb, it is the 'verb' + 'able'. In this case "speakable" or can be spoken. Hence, this is something that you have not learned, please don't think it doesn't exist.
PS.....
Throughout the past discussions, you seem to have some of the meanings crossed in the wrong place resulting in mistranslation due to the inconsistency in the definition of the characters. You had indicated to me that you don't want to take another step forward. Therefore, it is understandable where you are standing right now. If you don't want to accept or correct any legitimate mistakes, go ahead and continue to mislead your readers.....
Sorry, I'm just speaking the truth; the truth hurts. I hope you are not being offended.
-----------------------------
CD speaks doesn't know.
TTC knows doesn't speak. |
|
|
|
Nina
USA
6392 Posts |
Posted - 07/30/2010 : 12:30:56 PM
|
I'm not offended, CD. I'm getting used to you claiming you know stuff others don't. Sometimes you're right.
When 可 ke3 is used before a noun, it's a verb - "accept"?
But when it's used before a verb it's an adverb - "-able"?
You're assuming the second Dao in line 1 is a verb - speak?
I think it's a noun - dao.
言 yan2 is a verb - to speak.
云 yun2 is a verb - to say.
可 言 = speakable
可 云 = sayable
I don't mean to mislead anyone.
|
|
|
|
ChiDragon
USA
2863 Posts |
Posted - 07/30/2010 : 1:06:55 PM
|
Nina: "You're assuming the second Dao in line 1 is a verb - speak?
I think it's a noun - dao."
I am not assuming anything. If you can read Chinese, you can just go pick up any Chinese book about DDJ in China, Taiwan or Hong Kong. They all say the same thing. Please open up your scope to a broader view.
The second 'dao4' was used instead of 言 or 云, it is the art of the classic text. It gives the rhythmic flow of the phrase; and 云 was never used in a phrase this way.
道 可 道
dao4 ke3 dao4
道 可 言
dao4 ke3 yun2 <---- Do you see it looses its rhythm....???
可 言 = speakable <------------ It is acceptable.
可 云 = sayable <------- It is nor acceptable because 云 doesn't use this way. Sorry, misconception again.
BTW 云 is a classic character for 'speak' and 'say'. It doesn't use ofter in modern speaking but writings in the newspaper.
-----------------------------
CD speaks doesn't know.
TTC knows doesn't speak. |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
Verse 1
