| Author |
 Topic  |
|
jimclatfelter
USA
1026 Posts |
 Posted - 06/30/2010 : 8:11:39 PM
|
Tao...means literally a "way" or "path"...but in Taoist writings it has a far more comprehensive meaning, referring rather to a metaphysical first principle that embraces and underlies all being, a vast Oneness that precedes and in some mysterious manner generates the endless diverse forms of the world.
...unknowable as the tao may be in essence, one must somehow learn to sense its presence and movement in order to bring one's life and movements into harmony with it.
...te is the virtue or power that one acquires through being in accord with dao.
excerpts from Burton Watson intro to Addiss/Lombardo TTC translation.
I like this summary except for one word -- metaphysical. To me it's just physical -- a matter of perception, a way of perceiving the great image, the "big picture." The mysterious part is not metaphysical, is it? It's just mysterious, beyond our ability to put it into words. But it's really not hidden from view. Hidden in plain sight? Maybe.
"to sense its presence and movement" : It's here and now and on the move.
"embraces and underlies all being" : That's great way to put it.
Why it's here may be a mystery. It's an impossible question really. It is here! End of story! There is no alternative. It's impossible for it not to be here. I never get it when people ask "Why is there something instead of just nothing?" They say there really should be nothing at all. Talk about contrary to fact! It's another impossible question -- based on a false assumption. I'd rather go with the obvious. Physics, fine! Metaphysics, not needed.
Jim
|
|
|
ChiDragon
USA
2863 Posts |
Posted - 07/01/2010 : 09:30:27 AM
|
Ditto.........
-----------------------------
CD speaks doesn't know.
TTC knows doesn't speak. |
 |
|
|
Steve
USA
575 Posts |
Posted - 07/01/2010 : 12:55:44 PM
|
"Metaphysical" perhaps, Jim, in that you cannot know it through your senses. You cannot taste, touch, smell, hear, or see it. What you experience through your senses is its manifestations.
The metaphysical mystery of Laozi Chapter One is that in the same moment that you experience the manifestations you can also experience the mystery behind the manifestations.
The latter is cloaked in darkness, however, and your mouth will never be able to speak it. |
|
|
|
jimclatfelter
USA
1026 Posts |
Posted - 07/01/2010 : 1:57:23 PM
|
Hi Steve,
It's good to know you are here.
"You cannot taste, touch, smell, hear, or see it."
"...in the same moment that you experience the manifestations you can also experience the mystery behind the manifestations."
To me, the mystery is physical rather than metaphysical. My presence is real. My capacity to taste, hear, and see is a physical fact. It's here and now.
Can you hear silence? Is it a mystery? Or is it more like the ground of hearing? Or maybe both? Sound is manifested in silence. I find that to be a physical fact. It doesn't seem mysterious.
"...your mouth will never be able to speak it."
The fact is, I am it. I don't need to speak it. I'm the fact of life popping up out of nothing.
I figure you agree with this, Steve. Maybe you think of the word "metaphysical" differently.
Jim |
|
|
|
Nina
USA
6392 Posts |
Posted - 07/01/2010 : 5:37:11 PM
|
I don't know if this relates to what you're talking about......
I watched a show last night on The Big Bang. The theory is (excuse my non-scientific words) that before anything existed, there was a HUGE source of energy. The energy was so powerful that it exploded - sending out stuff that turned into particles that cooled off enough to eventually form into planets and stars. The universe is still expanding from that explosion, and once the motion slows down everything will start flowing back to where it started.
Another interesting thing...... there supposedly was matter and anti-matter. They collided, and matter was the winner of the battle. If they were equally matched or anti-matter got the upper hand - we wouldn't be here. That gives an interesting twist to wu/you and yin/yang. Maybe equal balance isn't such a good thing?
Of course Laozi couldn't have known this at the time...... but maybe he did come up with the same theory? A Big Bang. Dao was the HUGE energy source?
You got me looking up metaphysics in my Webster's dictionary.
metaphysic - the system of principles underlying a particular study or subject
metaphysical - supernatural, highly abstract or abstruse
metaphysics - the more abstruse philosophical studies
I guess any theory that can't be proven is metaphysical?
I agree, Jim...... I'm here - however I got here. I think Laozi was pondering, but I don't think he got too caught up in the metaphysical. IMO he simply said how we can do the best with what we have.
...te is the virtue or power that one acquires through being in accord with dao.
Maybe. It might seem like acquiring a "power", but I think it just allows more smiles. |
|
|
|
jimclatfelter
USA
1026 Posts |
Posted - 07/01/2010 : 7:24:47 PM
|
The universe is still expanding from that explosion.
Yes, the Big Bang is still happening. We are it!
Jim |
|
|
|
ChiDragon
USA
2863 Posts |
Posted - 07/01/2010 : 7:44:52 PM
|
Of course Laozi couldn't have known this at the time...... but maybe he did come up with the same theory? A Big Bang. Dao was the HUGE energy source?
LaoTze said: "Tao was blending together by chaos. Then, it splits to have all the light weight stuff ascended and became heaven as yang. The heavy stuff descended to form earth as yin."
-----------------------------
CD speaks doesn't know.
TTC knows doesn't speak. |
|
|
|
Steve
USA
575 Posts |
Posted - 07/01/2010 : 7:48:10 PM
|
I think of the "metaphysical" as that which is beyond what can be grasped by the senses, Jim.
quote:
Originally posted by jim
Can you hear silence? Is it a mystery? Or is it more like the ground of hearing? Or maybe both? Sound is manifested in silence. I find that to be a physical fact. It doesn't seem mysterious.
Silence is a great mystery to me. I can experience it but I can't tell you what it is. I can't describe to you just how it is that I can be aware of the absence of sound.
It's unfathomable to me. I cannot speak it.
|
|
|
|
jimclatfelter
USA
1026 Posts |
Posted - 07/01/2010 : 8:44:57 PM
|
I know what you mean, Steve. I can't speak it either. How I'm aware of silence is a mystery to me too. That I am is my life. It seems like enough to me. Just the fact of existence is enough -- almost too much.
I guess metaphysical can work for this. I suppose I like the word physical because it sounds less abstract and more real. But I can see that you and others are very comfortable with it. I'm just hearing the word differently.
Did you like the quotations from Watson? "...unknowable as the tao may be in essence, one must somehow learn to sense its presence and movement in order to bring one's life and movements into harmony with it."
That's Laozi's core message for me.
...te is the virtue or power that one acquires through being in accord with dao.
Maybe. It might seem like acquiring a "power", but I think it just allows more smiles.
Smiles works for me too, Nina. Delight and satisfaction!
|
|
|
|
Steve
USA
575 Posts |
Posted - 07/02/2010 : 08:44:11 AM
|
I like those Watson extracts very much, Jim.
"Tao...means literally a "way" or "path"...but in Taoist writings it has a far more comprehensive meaning, referring rather to a metaphysical first principle that embraces and underlies all being, a vast Oneness that precedes and in some mysterious manner generates the endless diverse forms of the world."
Both the source and the generative power. The beginning and the end. Every complexity traceable back to a root, every root giving rise to a complexity.
***
"...unknowable as the tao may be in essence, one must somehow learn to sense its presence and movement in order to bring one's life and movements into harmony with it."
On one level that works for me; awareness of the presence and movement of the dao brings me great peace and comfort. The world feels less alien, more hospitable.
On another level there's nothing fundamental--nothing core--that I need to do. Nothing that needs harmonizing. I'm fundamentally safe and secure just as I am--in whatever mode of consciousness I find myself. No mistakes, anywhere, in the universe. No winners and no losers.
These two types of understanding and being are not mutually exclusive. I can cultivate and benefit from cultivation and in the same moment sense that there's nothing to cultivate.
***
"...te is the virtue or power that one acquires through being in accord with dao."
I may feel out of accord--and that needs addressing--but I cannot be out of accord. The hubris involved in professing to know what "in sync" curtails is, ironically, just the type of hubris the cultivator seeks to transcend.
What a strange world this is. lol.
Thanks for engaging me in this, Jim. 
|
|
|
|
jimclatfelter
USA
1026 Posts |
Posted - 07/02/2010 : 12:55:08 PM
|
I'm fundamentally safe and secure just as I am--in whatever mode of consciousness I find myself. No mistakes, anywhere, in the universe. No winners and no losers.
Yes, from the point of view of the whole universe, there are no mistakes.
From a personal point of view, one does what one does. Safe and secure? Or secure in my insecurity? Speaking for myself, I don't know if I'm safe and secure in my person. What would that mean? I know it can't mean no illness, no hunger, no death. If my identity is with my person, I'm really not safe. If my identity is with something (or no-thing) beyond my person, then I am safe. But if I identify with both, I am both safe and unsafe.
Is my body and my person a passing appearance in a vastness beyond comprehension? When I'm gone, I won't know it. That's a kind of safety. If there part of me that will never be gone, that's a kind of safety too.
Can you say more about the kind of safety and security you are referring to? I'm not very clear about it.
Jim
|
|
|
|
Steve
USA
575 Posts |
Posted - 07/02/2010 : 2:01:47 PM
|
quote:
Originally posted by jimclatfelter
Can you say more about the kind of safety and security you are referring to?
Oh...shit.
I was afraid you'd ask that. lol.
What could possibly come to you, Jim, that would shake your confidence in the premise that, fundamentally, things are okay--just as they are?
Misfortune comes with having a body. So, no manner of bodily horror or mental anguish that comes my way will surprise me or shake my confidence.
It's in our human natures to rebel against the 'most-useful' and act out in ways that are counterproductive to leading peaceful and harmonious lives--so no manner of cruelty perpetrated by me or against me will come as any surprise.
None of that would shake my confidence that all is well and that I am fundamentally safe.
Is it different for you, Jim? |
|
|
|
jimclatfelter
USA
1026 Posts |
Posted - 07/02/2010 : 6:42:06 PM
|
Is it different for you, Jim?
I see many kinds of behavior as not okay. Bullying, for instance. Not good. What doesn't kill you will make you stronger? Not always.
No surprise. Right. But it's still not okay. Fundamentally not okay.
My own words here remind me of a cartoon I saw long ago. The chairwoman of the jury is reading the verdict. She says "We find the defendant guilty, very guilty.
I don't mean to sound like that. But I wouldn't want to have heard her say "We find the defendant fundamentally not guilty."
I'm not being very clear as to what's confusing me. I don't understand what is the fundamental that makes everything okay. Everything? Do you mean everything except the everyday cruelties of life. What about the fact of life feeding on life? Was that plan really necessary?
I get the feeling that you think that someday some secret we can't yet know will be revealed that will make it worth the cost in the long run. That's probably my own mind rebelling against the view that an afterlife in eternity will make it all better, all the present troubles in significant.
I guess I feel that everything's okay and not okay at the same time, and that that is okay because it is and has to be that way. But I'm not euphoric about it. |
|
|
|
Steve
USA
575 Posts |
Posted - 07/02/2010 : 7:59:55 PM
|
quote:
Originally posted by jimclatfelter
I guess I feel that everything's okay and not okay at the same time, and that that is okay because it is and has to be that way. But I'm not euphoric about it.
That's how I feel too, Jim. Just beneath the horror (and who can deny that there is horror in the world), all is okay. Both. The horror and the okay-ness, in the same moment.
As for euphoria, that comes and goes--like everything else.
But I am content with the arrangement. |
|
|
|
jimclatfelter
USA
1026 Posts |
Posted - 07/03/2010 : 07:44:13 AM
|
Just beneath the horror (and who can deny that there is horror in the world), all is okay. Both. The horror and the okay-ness, in the same moment.
Thanks, Steve. I think I get it -- somewhat. The cost of existence is pretty high, yet it has (or is) absolute value in itself.
Jim
|
|
|
|
jimclatfelter
USA
1026 Posts |
Posted - 07/03/2010 : 10:23:05 AM
|
I thought you might like this, Steve.
Sometimes the current
Is with you, and sometimes against;
Who keeps changing it ?
from 'Breathing with the Mind' by Kenneth Verity
I got this from one of my headless friends. I don't know that book or its author, but I love the haiku. |
|
|
|
Nina
USA
6392 Posts |
Posted - 07/03/2010 : 12:30:37 PM
|
What do you guys think about those with the ability to change things?
When we observe the horrors, should we simply sit back and say: Oh well. So it goes.
Don't you do what you can to make things smoother for yourself and others?
|
|
|
|
Steve
USA
575 Posts |
Posted - 07/03/2010 : 1:31:09 PM
|
quote:
Originally posted by Nina
Don't you do what you can to make things smoother for yourself and others?
I do, Nina. Absolutely. Only a fool wallows in his miseries. But it helps to keep an eye on the big picture, otherwise you spend a lifetime shooing away the flies--and what kind of life is that?
I deal with the horror best when I'm in touch with the underlying contentment that I've referenced in this thread. The contentment that is not contingent on the temporal comings and goings of day-to-day life. |
|
|
|
jimclatfelter
USA
1026 Posts |
Posted - 07/03/2010 : 4:27:24 PM
|
"I deal with the horror best when I'm in touch with the underlying contentment that I've referenced in this thread."
I do too, Steve. Not just the horror but the petty irritations too. Some things don't even rise to the level of irritation when I'm feeling whole and satisfied.
I like your phrase "underlying contentment." That says it perfectly. |
|
|
|
Nina
USA
6392 Posts |
Posted - 07/03/2010 : 6:36:16 PM
|
Shoo Fly Pie.
Sure, it's good to feel that underlying contentment. I had some thoughts that kept me awake last night - about horrors that had happened in the past - things I could do nothing about. I finally got off that weird train by thinking about NOW. I woke up feeling so thankful for everything I have now.
But...... when I wrote my question it was more about "others" than "self."
I was thinking today that the friends I choose to be close to in my life are those who might not agree with the way I choose to live my life, but don't criticize me for it or suggest ways I could become "better." And I do that with them too. We look to see what makes each other smile, and realize we might not smile at the same things, but we can still smile with each other.
I guess what I'm saying is........ we're all in this rowboat together. Some steer, some bask in the sun, some watch out for reefs, some cook up shoo fly pie.
And some yell at other boats!
Is the only thing of importance that "I" feel an underlying contentment?
|
|
|
|
jimclatfelter
USA
1026 Posts |
Posted - 07/03/2010 : 7:24:46 PM
|
Is the only thing of importance that "I" feel an underlying contentment?
No, but actions that arise from the "underlying contentment" are done better (aren't they?) than actions that arise from confusion and discontent.
That's one way I think of DE. Things sometimes happen more smoothly when we have no big grudges against reality. We have less to take out on others. Contentment includes a lack of regrets and resentments.
Anyway, I've never made a pie. Would you settle for pineapple upside down cake? |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
metaphysical ?
