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Nina
USA
6392 Posts |
 Posted - 07/03/2010 : 7:48:37 PM
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I don't like pineapple. Could you make it a chocolate cake? Then I'd swallow it!
I've always had a problem with the word "contentment." It sounds a bit comatose to me.
Who are the actions based on contentment better for? You or the person you're dealing with?
You'd be content making me a pineapple upside down cake? 
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jimclatfelter
USA
1026 Posts |
Posted - 07/04/2010 : 11:37:25 AM
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Chocolate it is!
I've always had a problem with the word "contentment." It sounds a bit comatose to me.
I would rather say deeply satisfied with the Great Image, the Big Picture. It's a resource for me.
Who are the actions based on contentment better for? You or the person you're dealing with?
Better for everyone. Do you like dealing with unhappy people? I don't. If I'm not worrying about personal problems, I can be of more use to others.
You'd be content making me a pineapple upside down cake?
Some steer, some bask in the sun, some watch out for reefs, some cook up shoo fly pie. And some yell at other boats!
Actually, I'd be content to lie in the sun. But I'm happy to make a cake or cookies or brownies or a mashed potato salad.
Your questions make me think you like some excitement and a good bit of socializing. I get the idea that you read the DDJ as a way of brightening up relationships with other people. I'm putting it poorly, I know. Do you see the DDJ as speaking about interaction with other people? I'm getting that from your questions. Do you see it as having anything to do with our own attitudes?
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Nina
USA
6392 Posts |
Posted - 07/04/2010 : 1:44:03 PM
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I think the DDJ offers suggestions for both, Jim. Checking ourselves out and relating to others. Your Big Picture has to include the 10,000 things, right?
I just get a little annoyed when people who get involved in this stuff talk a lot about how content they are - like that's all Laozi was suggesting.
No, I'm not a social butterfly. I spend most of my time alone. But when I am out and about or speaking with my few friends, I am social. This is funny..... One night when I went to the club I'd had dental work so I told my friends I was gonna keep quiet and let them do all the talking. Silence. I asked why they weren't talking? They said they didn't know what to say....... It was more fun when I started a conversation and they could respond.
So...... I don't mind being seen as a fool sometimes. And I don't mind telling others when they're acting like assholes or walking away from them if they do.
Or telling them I love them.... if I do.
How do we integrate with others?
What suggestions do you think Laozi had about that?
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Steve
USA
575 Posts |
Posted - 07/04/2010 : 3:10:07 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Nina
I just get a little annoyed when people who get involved in this stuff talk a lot about how content they are - like that's all Laozi was suggesting.
Oh, Nina. That makes me sad.
You get annoyed when people tell you how content they are?
Even if they do think that's all Laozi was talking about...you get annoyed?
Come on...tell sweet Stevie it ain't so.  |
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jimclatfelter
USA
1026 Posts |
Posted - 07/04/2010 : 4:07:27 PM
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Your Big Picture has to include the 10,000 things, right?
Absolutely! The 10,000 things [you] are half the picture. The other half is the empty space [wu] in which they appear. What I say is that seeing and being the whole picture brings satisfaction and delight. I didn't say I'm contented about everything. Far from it. Steve called it an underlying contentment. I've found that life gives me this wholeness I didn't expect.
How do we integrate with others? What suggestions do you think Laozi had about that?
Those are interesting and complicated questions. He talked about wuwei and ziran. I don't think he was interested in integrating with others if it's at the expense of freedom and integrity. He talked about not forcing your way, right? He talked against established social convention and etiquette.
I don't think he was giving rules or suggestions at all. He was telling us how the world works, including how certain actions can backfire. What works and what backfires! Acting from your natural self should lead to friendly relations with others. Following suggestions would be sure to backfire.
Do you see it differently?
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Nina
USA
6392 Posts |
Posted - 07/04/2010 : 5:28:03 PM
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quote:
[i]Originally posted by Steve[/i]
[br]quote:
Originally posted by Nina
I just get a little annoyed when people who get involved in this stuff talk a lot about how content they are - like that's all Laozi was suggesting.
Oh, Nina. That makes me sad.
You get annoyed when people tell you how content they are?
Even if they do think that's all Laozi was talking about...you get annoyed?
Come on...tell sweet Stevie it ain't so.
Okay, sweet Steviepoo.......... it ain't so! 
But, yes, it does annoy me when people say: that's all Laozi was suggesting.
IMO that promotes an......... "I'll do what I want and fuck the rest of the world" attitude. I know that's not the way you mean it, but if a person doesn't also include the ideas about integration in the DDJ, can't you see that's the way it comes across?
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Nina
USA
6392 Posts |
Posted - 07/04/2010 : 5:46:19 PM
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Jim-
I think we're basically on the same track - just driving different trains? Toot! Toot!
I don't think he was giving rules or suggestions at all.
No, I don't think he was giving rules, but I do think he was giving suggestions. I think he posed different ways of looking at things....... then left it up to us to try them out and see what worked for us.
He was telling us how the world works, including how certain actions can backfire.
Yes....... How certain actions can backfire. I think this goes back to the idea of finding your own De - that works with the process of Dao. Don't backfires usually occur when the exhaust system is blocked by something?
Acting from your natural self should lead to friendly relations with others.
Well, Jim, I've found from my own experiences that acting from my natural self doesn't always lead to friendly relations with others. Those who want to me act in a certain way can get really pissed off when I don't. If that happens, do you alter your natural self to suit them?
Wuwei - acting without the intention of getting something in return?
Ziran - following the process of Dao wherever it leads?
Integration - What does that mean to you?
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jimclatfelter
USA
1026 Posts |
Posted - 07/04/2010 : 6:41:43 PM
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Integration - What does that mean to you?
Having friends and friendly relations with neighbors and casual acquaintances.
Well, Jim, I've found from my own experiences that acting from my natural self doesn't always lead to friendly relations with others. Those who want to me act in a certain way can get really pissed off when I don't. If that happens, do you alter your natural self to suit them?
I don't have the answer, Nina. Not all people are suitable for friends. Those who don't like your natural self can find other friends. Or maybe you could talk it out with them. People like to direct the situations in their lives. It doesn't always work. That's just the way it is. I stay from people with fixed ideas they feel they must defend. They're just not fun for me to be around. When I had my gardening business I worked for people who felt they had to push their right wing politics and religion. Some knew I felt differently, but they wouldn't let it go. I also found people who held views similar to mine. I found them much easier to understand and like. I was free to express my opinions with them even. That was much more comfortable.
Don't backfires usually occur when the exhaust system is blocked by something?
Sounds right. I'm no mechanic. I've been working on verse 32. Using implements of war will bring tragic results. That's how it works. Can we leave aggressive action behind us? We've been warned it will backfire.
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Steve
USA
575 Posts |
Posted - 07/05/2010 : 08:19:41 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by jimclatfelter
I don't think he was giving rules or suggestions at all. He was telling us how the world works, including how certain actions can backfire.
That's how I view it too, Jim.
That doesn't seem to be the majority view though--at least not on the dao-focused Internet boards. Most view the Laozi as a rule book. And if you don't 'follow' the rules (the implication being that you may somehow find yourself on the 'outside'), you are out-of-sync or not in harmony with the dao.
I maintain (as you've alluded to elsewhere) that we cannot be outside or disconnected from the dao. The circle is way, way too big for that. To borrow from the Hindu literature, you are that, and there is nothing and nowhere else to be.
quote:
Originally posted by Nina
But, yes, it does annoy me when people say: that's all Laozi was suggesting. IMO that promotes an......... "I'll do what I want and fuck the rest of the world" attitude.
I know what you mean, Nina. Although the charge of hedonism gets bandied about the boards fairly regularly, I can't recall any serious or introspective poster, anywhere, ever suggesting that Laozi advocated hedonism.
Hedonism doesn't seem to be the way that nature conducts its business. There's an order and sequence to things. Cooperating with your fellow living beings is generally better for you in the long run than warring with them.
Actually, when nature does engage in hedonism, the results can be disastrous. Think, for example, cancer cells dividing without regard for their neighboring cells and organs.
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jimclatfelter
USA
1026 Posts |
Posted - 07/05/2010 : 1:20:24 PM
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Most view the Laozi as a rule book. And if you don't 'follow' the rules (the implication being that you may somehow find yourself on the 'outside'), you are out-of-sync or not in harmony with the dao.
That is surprising. What is the attraction then? Does it mean people are looking for rules? I would have thought that Dao would attract people who are fed up with rules.
I maintain (as you've alluded to elsewhere) that we cannot be outside or disconnected from the dao.
Yes, I see it that way too, Steve. If Dao is all there is, how could I be outside of it? What makes me so special? If Dao is less than all, what makes it so special? |
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Steve
USA
575 Posts |
Posted - 07/05/2010 : 2:43:04 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by jimclatfelter
That is surprising. What is the attraction then? Does it mean people are looking for rules? I would have thought that Dao would attract people who are fed up with rules.
Now those are yummy questions, Jim.
I think yes, people are looking for rules. That's the allure of religion; you get to surrender your will and your intellect and just feed at the trough that's been presented to you. Nice and easy. No thought or introspection required.
With the Laozi, you're on your own. Every time you read it, you find something new there. That scares the shit out of most people.
You'll make a lot of money interpreting God for people, but there's no money to be made by telling people they're already fully-equipped and ready to roll.
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Nina
USA
6392 Posts |
Posted - 07/05/2010 : 6:29:09 PM
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When you guys start talking about......
"Being in harmony with Dao" or "out of sync with Dao"......
We've talked about that lots of times.
I think Laozi pointed out many ways people could be out of sync wth Dao. In the chapters we've been discussing in the Your Dao De Jing section, the DDJ points out how using weapons and trying to force others to comply with your demands isn't (flowing with the process of) Dao. Or is it?
Jim-
Thanks for telling me how you see integration.
I looked it up in my Webster's, and I think you'll like this.....
integrate - 1. to form or blend into a whole (unite)
Maybe...... Laozi was suggesting ways to help others - not just tell them whatever they're doing is okay - but giving them clues on how to find their own De. If they find that - then they can integrate into the whole. That doesn't mean trying to make everyone like you (like those nasty rules people erroneously think is in the DDJ) but finding...... what really sings to their hearts. I don't think most people have found that. Do you guys think so? Does it matter to you?
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Steve
USA
575 Posts |
Posted - 07/06/2010 : 1:46:39 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Nina
Maybe...... Laozi was suggesting ways to help others - not just tell them whatever they're doing is okay - but giving them clues on how to find their own De.
No one in their right mind would tell anyone that whatever they do is okay. I think that's a bit of a red herring. No one here--no serious poster I've ever read on any dao-focused forum--has ever said such a thing.
I don't think we humans need "clues" on how to live in accord with nature. That's the kind of information that came hard coded with the merchandise--when you and I popped out of our mothers' wombs.
"Clues" = rulebook.
But, as our friend Rene likes to say...it's natural that we see things differently.  |
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jimclatfelter
USA
1026 Posts |
Posted - 07/06/2010 : 1:59:18 PM
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| Laozi writes about the consequences of certain actions. The rest is up to each of us. |
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Nina
USA
6392 Posts |
Posted - 07/06/2010 : 7:33:50 PM
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Steve-
This is where what you say confuses me.
I agree - we don't need rules or codes. I never said that's what Laozi suggested.
But when you say on the one hand that everything is already in sync with Dao - and add that we're all hard coded to be in tune with nature......... How does a person find out what they're hard coded for? What makes them innately in tune with Nature?
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Steve
USA
575 Posts |
Posted - 07/07/2010 : 07:28:08 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Nina
But when you say on the one hand that everything is already in sync with Dao - and add that we're all hard coded to be in tune with nature......... How does a person find out what they're hard coded for? What makes them innately in tune with Nature?
The way I see it, Nina, I'm hard coded to be Steve and you're hard coded to be Nina. In the coding are the instructions for being nice-Steve and nice-Nina and bad-Steve and bad-Nina. If one's lucky and lives past infancy, one gets to put all the instructions into effect over a lifetime.
Laozi suggests to me that if I do what comes naturally and unpretentiously, I'll be most efficacious. If I put on airs and adorn myself with the need for things like 'wisdom' and 'harmony' and 'enlightenment,' odds are I'll fuck up.
It seems to work that way--for me at least. |
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Nina
USA
6392 Posts |
Posted - 07/07/2010 : 7:21:54 PM
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Thanks, Steve.
I see what you're saying, and that seems to work for me too.
Unless I turn into bad-Nina. 
But then....... sometimes that works too! 
I'm just still wondering.......
1. How did you find out what was "naturally" Steve?
2. What do you do (if anything) to help others find what is naturally themselves?
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Steve
USA
575 Posts |
Posted - 07/08/2010 : 6:22:04 PM
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Out of words for the time being, Nina.
Thanks for the exchanges! |
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searching
United Kingdom
947 Posts |
Posted - 07/08/2010 : 7:35:12 PM
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A cliffhanger!?
No, please come back and say more.
Loved this thread.
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ChiDragon
USA
2863 Posts |
Posted - 07/09/2010 : 12:29:38 AM
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Natural is natural. If one has to know how to find something that is natural, then, it was not done naturally after all....
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CD speaks doesn't know.
TTC knows doesn't speak. |
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metaphysical ?
