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jimclatfelter
USA
1026 Posts |
 Posted - 07/16/2010 : 09:26:59 AM
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44
Edit: This was re-posted by Jim below to correct the Chinese characters - Nina
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ChiDragon
USA
2863 Posts |
Posted - 07/16/2010 : 10:44:20 AM
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44
名與身孰親？
ming2 yu3 shen1 shu2 qin1?
fame,name or life,self which near
Name or self, which is nearer?
Fame and body which is more intimate?
身與貨孰多？
shen1 yu3 huo4 shu2 duo1?
life,self or wealth which more,greater
Self or wealth, which means more?
Body and wealth which more valuable?
得與亡孰病？
de2 yu3 wang2 shu2 bing4?
gain or loss which hurt
Gain or loss, which brings hurt?
The gain of fame and the lost of life which is more vulnerable?
是故甚愛必大費；
shi4 gu4 shen4 ai4 bi4 da4 fei4;
surely so much love always great price
Attachment comes with great cost.
Therefore, if over liken in fame, it will be more consuming;
多藏必厚亡。
duo1 cang2 bi4 hou4 wang2.
more hoard always heavy loss
Possession brings heavy loss.
Over stock will bring heavy loss
知足不辱，
zhi1 zu2 bu4 ru3,
know enough,satisfaction no disgrace
Know sufficiency to avoid disgrace.
Being complacent will avoid humiliation,
知止不殆。
zhi1 zhi3 bu4 dai4
know stop not danger
Know limitation to avoid peril.
Know when to cease will avoid danger
可以長久。
ke3 yi3 chang2 jiu3.
this way live long
That will last forever.
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CD speaks doesn't know.
TTC knows doesn't speak. |
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jimclatfelter
USA
1026 Posts |
Posted - 07/16/2010 : 2:15:45 PM
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Here's the verse with the Unicode-8 setting. Maybe Nina will delete the first post for me.
44
名 與 身 孰 親 。
ming2 yu3 shen1 shu2 qin1?
fame,name or life,self which near
Name or self, which is nearer?
身 與 貨 孰 多 。
shen1 yu3 huo4 shu2 duo1?
life,self or wealth which more,greater
Self or wealth, which means more?
得 與 亡 孰 病 。
de2 yu3 wang2 shu2 bing4?
gain or loss which hurt
Gain or loss, which brings hurt?
是 故 甚 愛 必 大 費 。
shi4 gu4 shen4 ai4 bi4 da4 fei4;
surely so much love always great price
Attachment comes with great cost.
多 藏 必 厚 亡 。
duo1 cang2 bi4 hou4 wang2.
more hoard always heavy loss
Possession brings heavy loss.
知 足 不 辱 。
zhi1 zu2 bu4 ru3,
know enough,satisfaction no disgrace
Know sufficiency to avoid disgrace.
知 止 不 殆 。
zhi1 zhi3 bu4 dai4
know stop not danger
Know limitation to avoid peril.
可 以 長 久 。
ke3 yi3 chang2 jiu3.
this way live long
This is the way to a long life.
44
Name or self, which is nearer?
Self or wealth, which means more?
Gain or loss, which brings hurt?
Attachment comes with great cost.
Possession brings heavy loss.
To know sufficiency means no disgrace.
To know limitation means no danger.
This is the way to a long life.
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Edited by - jimclatfelter on 07/16/2010 2:16:06 PM |
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Nina
USA
6392 Posts |
Posted - 07/16/2010 : 3:13:28 PM
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This is one of those rare instances where all the early texts of the DDJ (Wang Bi, Heshang Gong, Fu Yi, Mawangdui A and B and Guodian) include mostly the same characters.
The Mawangdui A and B silks were deteriorated in some places, so I'll use the Guodian to give my translation here - with the few changes noted in bold.
名 與 身 孰 親
ming2 yu3 shen1 shu2 qin1?
title or body which? hold dear
Fame or health - which do you hold most dear?
身 與 貨 孰 多
shen1 yu3 huo4 shu2 duo1?
body or merchandise which? multiply
Health or belongings - which would you rather increase?
得 與 亡 孰 病
de2 yu3 wang2 shu2 bing4?
gain or loss which? sick
Gain or loss - which leads to illness?
(是 故) 甚 愛 必 大 費 ... (是 故) not in GD, HSG or MWD A and B
(shi4 gu4) shen4 ai4 bi4 da4 fei4;
extreme love must great expense
Obsession can only lead to great expenditures.
厚 藏 必 多 亡 ... These characters were reversed in GD
hou4 cang2 bi4 duo1 wang2.
much hoarding must multiply loss
Hoarding can only lead to much spoilage.
故 知足 不 辱 ... 故 included in MWD A and GD
gu4 zhi1zu2 bu4 ru3,
therefore be content with one's lot not disgrace
Therefore, being content with what you have doesn't bring disgrace.
知 止 不 殆
zhi1 zhi3 bu4 dai4
know stop not danger
Knowing when to stop doesn't bring calamity.
可以 長 舊 。 ... 舊 used instead in Guodian
ke3yi3 chang2 jiu4.
would be willing to last worn out
You would be able to last for a long time without wearing yourself out.
Modern interpretation:
Would you rather be famous or healthy?
Would you rather be healthy or own lots of stuff?
Do you think that if you accomplished a lot in your life or didn’t accomplish much of anything - either one would prevent you from getting sick?
If you get too gung-ho on anything, it’ll cost you a lot of energy.
If you try to hold on to what you think you’ve gotten, it’ll just turn rotten.
There’s no disgrace in feeling good for whatever you’ve gotten in life.
If you don’t keep pushing to get more, you won’t make yourself sick.
Living a long happy life can happen if you don’t wear yourself out trying to get what you don’t really need.
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I'm starting to like this....... Each person who wants to can add their own translation. 
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jimclatfelter
USA
1026 Posts |
Posted - 07/16/2010 : 5:09:18 PM
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知 止 zhī zhǐ = know stop = know cessation
知 足 zhī zú = know enough = know satisfaction
Also in verses 32 and 34.
44 [revised]
Name or self, which is nearer?
Self or wealth, which means more?
Gain or loss, which brings hurt?
Attachment comes with great cost.
Possession brings heavy loss.
To know satisfaction means no disgrace.
To know cessation means no danger.
This is the way to a long life.
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ChiDragon
USA
2863 Posts |
Posted - 07/17/2010 : 11:23:46 AM
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Why are the difference versions....???
Let's look at the last characters of this two lines:
GD:
可 以 長 舊 。 <------ Incorrect
ke3 yi3 chang2 jiu4.
MWD-A and B
可 以 長 久. < ------ Corrected by later scholars
ke3yi3 chang2 jiu3
In the ancient time, the books were written on bamboo slips. It was heavy and too impractical to carry them around. Therefore, people were reciting them to communicate to other people. During the recital process, there are many synonyms and homonyms in the characters are easily to be misunderstood by the listeners. Sometimes, some auxiliary words were added to make it rhyme; some characters were just rhyming slang; some characters used were local dialects. Sometimes the annotations were added to alter the original text. Hence, someone decided to put the DDJ in writing will incorporate all the alterations and mistakes through the oral communication.
In the examples given above is a good indication of what took place in the transition.
舊(jiu4): old
久(jiu3): long time
These two characters are very easily to be mistaken understood due to the homonym effect. People from a different locality may mispronounce it. If the writer took it by the sound instead of its actual meaning, thus the whole meaning in context will be altered.
Here are the translations for these two lines.
1. 可 以 長 舊 。 <------ Incorrect
1. ke3 yi3 chang2 jiu4.
Can be always old
2. 可 以 長 久. <------ Corrected by later scholars in MWD-A and B
2. ke3yi3 chang2 jiu3
Can be lasted forever.
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CD speaks doesn't know.
TTC knows doesn't speak. |
Edited by - ChiDragon on 07/17/2010 11:24:10 AM |
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Nina
USA
6392 Posts |
Posted - 07/17/2010 : 6:57:23 PM
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CD-
You might be right - that it's an error in the Guodian.
However.......
1. Many scholars have suggested that the pronunciation of the characters at the time was much different than the way they're pronounced now.
2. It would have been much easier for the Guodian scribe to write 久 (3 strokes) than 舊 (17 strokes). Maybe the later scribes chose an easier character to write.
3. There isn't much difference between the meanings of 久 and 舊. Maybe there is today, but if you look at the character 久 - it's a pictograph of a person walking with difficulty using a cane. He's gotten old and worn out.
Can be lasted forever?
I don't think so. 
You would be able to last for a long time without wearing yourself out.
....... makes much more sense to me in relation to the rest of the chapter.
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Nina
USA
6392 Posts |
Posted - 07/17/2010 : 7:07:43 PM
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Jim-
This line is a bit confusing:
To know satisfaction means no disgrace.
Lots of people can be satisfied with all sorts of stuff, but might still feel like that's disgraceful. Satisfied with having sex with lots of people and throwing them to the wayside when they're done with them?
I liked the other word you used - sufficiency better.
Knowing what's sufficient is not disgraceful.
???
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jimclatfelter
USA
1026 Posts |
Posted - 07/17/2010 : 7:11:39 PM
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I agree, Nina. Here it is with even simpler words.
44 [revised again]
Name or self, which is nearer?
Self or wealth, which means more?
Gain or loss, which brings hurt?
Attachment comes with great cost.
Possession brings heavy loss.
To know what's enough means no disgrace.
To know when to stop means no danger.
This is the way to a long life.
edit - This verse seems yo be about satisfaction or contentment, doesn't it? I know you don't like the word contentment. i wonder how you see this verse.
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Edited by - jimclatfelter on 07/17/2010 7:20:55 PM |
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Nina
USA
6392 Posts |
Posted - 07/17/2010 : 7:48:51 PM
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Yes, JIm, you got me there.
I even used the word "content" in my translation. But I think there's a difference between being content with what one has and "contentment."
In this chapter, the DDJ also says that (in your words):
To know what's enough means no disgrace.
I take that to mean it's not disgraceful to know one's own limitations - to not try to gain the things others think one must have in order to gain respect and acceptance from others. If you put a lot of energy into trying to attain stuff you're not suited for, you're bound to wear yourself out before your time.
Being content with what you have - in this instance - I think refers to taking the precious parts of you that make you the incredible part of the process of Dao that you're most suited for and parlaying it into reaching more than contentment. Reaching happiness. And not wearing yourself out with your obsessions for other things you don't need.
How do you see it?
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jimclatfelter
USA
1026 Posts |
Posted - 07/17/2010 : 9:35:06 PM
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For me it's more than contentment too. It's about satisfaction and delight with the design of life, the great image. When I see I am whole and complete, isn't that enough? All else follows from that vision.
On a material level, knowing what's enough and when to stop is important too. Going for fame or gain robs energy and never brings satisfaction -- because it leads to not knowing when to stop and what is sufficient.
For me, happiness comes and goes, but satisfaction stays, often accompanied by delight. I agree about "not wearing yourself out with your obsessions for other things you don't need."
To know what's enough means no disgrace.
Another way to see it is that disgrace can come from pushing the limits. |
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ChiDragon
USA
2863 Posts |
Posted - 07/19/2010 : 11:11:35 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Nina
CD-
You might be right - that it's an error in the Guodian.
However.......
1. Many scholars have suggested that the pronunciation of the characters at the time was much different than the way they're pronounced now.
2. It would have been much easier for the Guodian scribe to write 久 (3 strokes) than 舊 (17 strokes). Maybe the later scribes chose an easier character to write.
3. There isn't much difference between the meanings of 久 and 舊. Maybe there is today, but if you look at the character 久 - it's a pictograph of a person walking with difficulty using a cane. He's gotten old and worn out.
4. Can be lasted forever?
I don't think so.
You would be able to last for a long time without wearing yourself out.
....... makes much more sense to me in relation to the rest of the chapter.
1. In the examples given above is a good indication of what took place in the transition.
舊(jiu4): old
久(jiu3): long time
These two characters are very easily to be mistaken understood due to the homonym effect. People from a different locality may mispronounce it. If the writer took it by the sound instead of its actual meaning, thus the whole meaning in context will be altered.
2. The number of strokes is immaterial. The characters with any number of strokes can be written.
3. We cannot assume those two characters are the same because we really don't know they are or not. At least we know they are different today, let's treat them that way for a better understanding and clarity with consistency.
4. "Can be lasted forever" was meant to be the spirit and the philosophy of the deceased. However, if one assumed it was referring to a physical body, maybe it will be suitable for one's mental health or a longer life. Another word, believe whatever that is suitable for one's mental desire. As long one's mind is at ease, the body will last longer.....
PS...
Let's look at LaoTze, we don't even know he did ever exist; but his spirit and philosophy lived forever. Thus it is fair to say that LaoTze is in longevity(can be lasted forever).
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CD speaks doesn't know.
TTC knows doesn't speak. |
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jimclatfelter
USA
1026 Posts |
Posted - 07/19/2010 : 1:00:59 PM
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Let's look at LaoTze, we don't even know he did ever exist.
I'm glad you wrote that, CD. It shows some openness of mind. |
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Nina
USA
6392 Posts |
Posted - 07/19/2010 : 5:44:10 PM
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Here's maybe another way of looking at it........
I don't think Laozi (if there was such a person) was concerned with having his philosophy last forever.
The legend says he was leaving by the west gate without ever having written down his thoughts. Then the border guard demanded he write it down before leaving.
If the legend isn't true, it still makes you wonder why people came up with that story? Weren't they setting Laozi up as someone who just lived his life without feeling a need to leave a trail behind him?
CD: As long one's mind is at ease, the body will last longer.
That sounds right to me. And the body will last longer without getting worn out. |
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ChiDragon
USA
2863 Posts |
Posted - 07/20/2010 : 3:14:41 PM
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The body will last longer as long it can hold.
The spirit and the philosophy of the deceased will live forever and ever after.
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CD speaks doesn't know.
TTC knows doesn't speak. |
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verse 44
