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jimclatfelter
USA
1026 Posts |
 Posted - 07/17/2010 : 3:54:33 PM
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45
大 成 若 缺 ，其 用 不 弊 。
da4 cheng2 ruo4 que1, qi2 yong4 bu4 bi4.
great attain seems lacking yet use not impair,worn
Great attainment seems lacking, yet its use is not diminished.
大 盈 若 沖 ，其 用 不 窮 。
da4 ying2 ruo4 chong1, qi2 yong4 bu4 qiong2.
great full seems empty yet use not deplete
Great fullness seems empty, but its use is not depleted.
大 直 若 屈 。
da4 zhi2 ruo4 qu1,
great straight seem bent,crooked
Great honesty seems crooked.
大巧 若 拙 。
da4 qiao3 ruo4 zhuo1,
great skill seem awkward
Great skill seems awkward.
大 辯 若 訥 。
da4 bian4 ruo4 na4. ne2 (nina)
great eloquence seems stammer
Great eloquence seems halting.
躁 勝 寒
zao4 sheng4 han2,
restless conquers cold
Being active conquers cold.
靜 勝 熱，
jing4 sheng4 re4,
calm conquers heat
Being tranquil conquers heat.
清 靜 為 天 下 正 。
qing1 jing4 wei2 tian1 xia4 zheng4.
clear calm act heaven under norm
Calm and clear is the norm under heaven.
45
Great attainment seems lacking,
Yet use will not impair it.
Great fullness seems empty,
Yet use will not deplete it.
Great honesty seems crooked.
Great skill seems awkward.
Great eloquence seems halting.
Being active conquers cold.
Being tranquil conquers heat.
Calm and clear is the norm under heaven.
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Nina
USA
6392 Posts |
Posted - 07/17/2010 : 7:31:52 PM
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Jim-
The only version I could find that uses these characters:
清 靜 為 天 下 正 。
qing1 jing4 wei2 tian1 xia4 zheng4.
clear calm act heaven under norm
Calm and clear is the norm under heaven.
is Mawangdui A.
My sources for Wang Bi, Heshang Gong, Fu Yi and Guodian have:
清 靜 為 天 下 定 。
qing1 jing4 wei2 tian1 xia4 ding4.
clear calm become world settled
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jimclatfelter
USA
1026 Posts |
Posted - 07/18/2010 : 07:51:23 AM
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四十五章
大成若缺，其用不弊。大盈若沖，其用不窮。大直若屈，大巧若拙，大辯若訥。躁勝寒，靜勝熱，清靜為天下正。
I checked the Internet version with Bradford's matrix. It uses zheng4.
The version above ends with zheng4. It's a different version from the Internet. It gives Chinese only. I haven't used it yet for the Chinese. I've stuck with the onkellotus Wang Bi unicode version.
I can see that English translations have used different Wang Bi texts to translate. Some say norm -- Maurer, McCarroll, Addiss & Lombardo, Wilhelm. Some say settled or puts right -- Waley, Feng & English. And some even say leader or govern -- Red Pine, Lau, Chan, Hamill, Hinton. So which is it to be? I've read that Wang Bi worked with more than one version of the text. How many present-day Wang Bi versions are there?
I don't mind changing the translation, but these discrepancies get confusing.
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Edited by - jimclatfelter on 07/18/2010 07:51:51 AM |
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ChiDragon
USA
2863 Posts |
Posted - 07/18/2010 : 11:00:59 AM
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Jim...
Stay with one, and only one, reliable source to avoid confusion. I thought you have been using the source from here. This is a pretty reliable source, to me anyway....
http://home.pages.at/onkellotus/TTK/Chinese_Uni-WB_TTK.html#Kap45
大成若缺，其用不弊。
大盈若沖，其用不窮。
大直若屈。
大巧若拙。
大辯若訥。
靜勝躁，
寒勝熱。
清靜為天下正。
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CD speaks doesn't know.
TTC knows doesn't speak. |
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ChiDragon
USA
2863 Posts |
Posted - 07/18/2010 : 12:20:47 PM
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What is wrong with this two lines....????
躁 勝 寒
zao4 sheng4 han2,
Impatience beats cold
靜 勝 熱，
jing4 sheng4 re4,
calmness beats heat
If we follow LaoTze's pattern in the past, it was Yin/Yang.
Let's look at the yin/Yang pairs in these lines.
躁/寒(impatience/coldness); 靜/熱(calmness/heat), They don't follow TaoTze's pattern at all.
If we rearrange them, we have LoaTze's pattern as follows:
靜/躁(calmness/impatience); 寒/熱(coldness/heat)
靜 勝 躁
jing4 sheng4 zao4
Calmness beats impatience
寒 勝 熱
han2 sheng4 re2
Coldness beats heat
IMO The knowledgeable scholars had studied the DDJ long enough to follow LaoTze's philosophy are able to make correction, intuitively, to the mistakes made by the past scholars.
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CD speaks doesn't know.
TTC knows doesn't speak. |
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jimclatfelter
USA
1026 Posts |
Posted - 07/18/2010 : 2:34:02 PM
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| You're right, CD, it's not a yin-yang pattern for these pairs. But if we are following a certain text, we are following it exactly, aren't we? How can we justify rearranging it? Who's to say all the pairs in the DDJ are yin-yang pairs. The pairs in verse 2 aren't yin-yang pairs. Beautiful and ugly aren't yin and yang. Neither are kind and unkind. Besides, yin doesn't beat yang. The two blend harmoniously. 勝 sheng4 would be out of place in a yin-yang pair. That's how I see it. |
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Nina
USA
6392 Posts |
Posted - 07/18/2010 : 6:29:06 PM
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Jim-
I don't know how many Wang Bi versions there are. Probably a lot of them. Just look at the differences between various internet sources. The thing is..... no one has a copy of the original in Wang Bi's writing, so it's pretty much a guessing game. Many of the "supposedly accurate" Wang Bi versions were handed down from a Master to his disciples over the centuries, so those guys say it's the real one.
The reason I chose to use 定 ding4 instead of 正 zheng4 is because.....
1. It's the character used in the oldest version - the Guodian
2. It's the character used in all the other versions - except for MWD A
Anyway......
There's not really much difference between the meanings.
正 is included in the character 定. 定 in the seal and bronze characters was written the same as 正 - but with a roof on the top...... "When there is order in the house."
I'm just not thrilled with the word norm for either of them.
Is calm and clear the norm under heaven?
Watch out for those thunderstorms!
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Nina
USA
6392 Posts |
Posted - 07/18/2010 : 6:42:36 PM
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quote:
[i]Originally posted by ChiDragon[/i]
[br]What is wrong with this two lines....????
躁 勝 寒
zao4 sheng4 han2,
Impatience beats cold
靜 勝 熱，
jing4 sheng4 re4,
calmness beats heat
The way those lines have been explained - and what makes sense to me - is.....
躁 勝 寒
zao4 sheng4 han2,
hasty conquer cold
Moving quickly overcomes the cold.
靜 勝 熱，
jing4 sheng4 re4,
still conquer heat
Keeping still overcomes the heat.
Those are pretty easy to understand.
If you're cold, get up and move around and your body will warm up.
If you're hot, sit still until your body temperature goes down.
This ties into the rest of the chapter exquisitely IMO - relating to anticipation and disappointment. If I may add my commentary for the last lines........
-Moving quickly overcomes the cold.
-Keeping still overcomes the heat.
There’s a time to move fast and a time to slow down. If you’re trying to know when to move fast and when to slow down, it’s best to pay attention to what your heart is telling you rather than trying to fulfill demands others put on you or demands you place on yourself. There's a time for everything, and nothing can be forced. If you pay attention to what's going on around you, you'll know that whatever you do, you've done it to the best of your ability at this moment in your life.
-A clarifying stillness occurs when everything in the world has been settled.
If you accept the adrenalin of the anticipation, the exhilaration of the accomplishment, and the disappointment that might follow - then you've reached a type of stillness. Stillness doesn't mean not experiencing. It means accepting the experience and knowing that it's just another wave on the ocean. The world is settled because you stop trying to make it anything other than what it is. Don’t be so hard on yourself.
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ChiDragon
USA
2863 Posts |
Posted - 07/18/2010 : 7:17:35 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by jimclatfelter
You're right, CD, it's not a yin-yang pattern for these pairs. But if we are following a certain text, we are following it exactly, aren't we? How can we justify rearranging it? Who's to say all the pairs in the DDJ are yin-yang pairs. The pairs in verse 2 aren't yin-yang pairs. Beautiful and ugly aren't yin and yang. Neither are kind and unkind. Besides, yin doesn't beat yang. The two blend harmoniously. 勝 sheng4 would be out of place in a yin-yang pair. That's how I see it.
Yin/Yang can be something opposite to each other.
Like Beautiful/Ugly; Kind/Unkind; for/against are considered the Yin/Yang pairs.
Yin beats Yang, please don't take it literally. It we say soft overcomes hardness, it simply means water(soft) can run over a rock(hardness) and puts a mark or a hole over the rock after a long period of time.
勝(sheng4): literally means wins over something. It's got a very subtle meaning like something can overcome something else. For example, if you beat me in a game of chess. Then, it was said to be "you 勝(sheng4) me." In the other case, it was "the water 勝(sheng4) the rock" because to water did something to the rock(softness overcome hardness.) This something one has to grok its quale. It is very hard to explain......
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CD speaks doesn't know.
TTC knows doesn't speak. |
Edited by - ChiDragon on 07/18/2010 7:44:31 PM |
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ChiDragon
USA
2863 Posts |
Posted - 07/19/2010 : 12:37:05 AM
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Nina....
One can interpret any version that make sense, but you did not get my point about the yin/yang pattern.
If we follow LaoTze's pattern in the past, it was Yin/Yang.
Let's look at the yin/Yang pairs in these lines.
躁/寒(impatience/coldness); 靜/熱(calmness/heat), They don't follow TaoTze's pattern at all.
If we rearrange them, we have LoaTze's pattern as follows:
靜/躁(calmness/impatience); 寒/熱(coldness/heat)
靜 勝 躁
jing4 sheng4 zao4
Calmness beats impatience
One stay calm instead of impatient will see thing more clearly.
寒 勝 熱
han2 sheng4 re2
Coldness beats heat
Air conditioner beats the hot temperature in youｒ house or car.
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CD speaks doesn't know.
TTC knows doesn't speak. |
Edited by - ChiDragon on 07/19/2010 12:55:57 AM |
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Nina
USA
6392 Posts |
Posted - 07/19/2010 : 5:36:49 PM
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CD-
I did get the point you were trying to make about yin/yang. I just think you're getting a little carried away with that idea and trying to make these lines fit in with that ideology when I don't think they do.
I think there's a time to be still and a time to be active. Maybe that can fit in with your ying/yang theory for those lines? Instead of trying to find the opposites within each line, see the opposites between the two lines?
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Verse 45
