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jimclatfelter
USA
1026 Posts |
 Posted - 07/19/2010 : 3:29:23 PM
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46
天 下 有 道 ，
tian1 xia4 you3 dao4,
heaven under exist Dao
With Dao in the world
卻 走 馬 以 糞 。
que4 zou3 ma3 yi3 fen4.
even fast horse for mature
Race horses are used for manure.
天 下 無 道 ，
tian1 xia4 wu2 dao4,
heaven under not dao
Without Dao in the world
戎 馬 生 於 郊 。
rong2 ma3 sheng1 yu2 jiao1.
war horse bear on frontier
War horses breed on the farms.
禍 莫 大 於 不 知 足 。
huo4 mo4 da4 yu2 bu4 zhi1 zu2;
disaster none greater than not know satisfaction,enough
No disaster exceeds not knowing what is enough.
咎 莫 大 於 欲 得 。
jui4 mo4 da4 yu2 yu4 de2.
fault none greater than desire gain
No fault exceeds the desire to gain.
故 知 足 之 足 常 足 矣 。
gu4 zhi1 zu2 zhi1 zu2 chang2 zu2 yi3.
thus know enough always enough indeed
Who knows what is enough has enough indeed.
46 [modified]
With Dao in the world
Race horses manure the fields.
Without Dao in the world
War horses breed on the farms.
No disaster exceeds not knowing what is enough.
No fault exceeds the desire to gain.
Who knows what is enough has enough indeed.
Notes:
War horses breed [sheng1] on the farms.
sheng1 used here as breed or bred
used in verse 42 as bear, beget
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ChiDragon
USA
2863 Posts |
Posted - 07/20/2010 : 10:41:36 AM
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天 下 無 道 ，
tian1 xia4 wu2 dao4,
heaven under not dao
Without Dao in the world,
戎 馬 生 於 郊 。
rong2 ma3 sheng1 yu2 jiao1.
war horse bear on frontier
War horses breed on the farms.
Jim.....
The translation for the second line contradicts its original meaning.
Without Dao in the world, war horses breed on the farms.
Only in peace time, the war horses are breed in the farms.
Without Tao means that the world was not in peace and a war was going on. Hence, the war horses are being used in the battlefield which implies that they have to be bred in the outskirts rather in the farms.
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CD speaks doesn't know.
TTC knows doesn't speak. |
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jimclatfelter
USA
1026 Posts |
Posted - 07/20/2010 : 12:07:07 PM
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It's not really a contradiction, CD. Almost all English translations have it this way.
In time of peace, fast horses are retired to the fields instead of being use in warfare. == with Dao in the world
In time of war, farms are used to breed war horses instead of for peaceful purposes. == without Dao in the world
With Dao in the world
Race horses manure the fields.
Without Dao in the world
War horses breed on the farms.
Edit to add:
The last two lines are about contentment and satisfaction one more time:
No fault exceeds the desire to gain.
Who knows what is enough has enough indeed. |
Edited by - jimclatfelter on 07/20/2010 12:25:21 PM |
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ChiDragon
USA
2863 Posts |
Posted - 07/20/2010 : 12:32:10 PM
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Jim.....
You are missing the point. The war horses of interest are being ridden by the soldiers in the battlefield. LaoTze was trying to say that the horses were bred in the farms in peace time; and bred them in the battlefield during the war because they are with the soldiers at the time.
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CD speaks doesn't know.
TTC knows doesn't speak. |
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jimclatfelter
USA
1026 Posts |
Posted - 07/20/2010 : 1:08:05 PM
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I think it's you who is missing the point, and it's an important one. Maybe we need a third party to decide this. Anyone?
Think about it. Horses on the battlefield don't breed. In wartime, the military takes over the farms. |
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ChiDragon
USA
2863 Posts |
Posted - 07/20/2010 : 2:00:06 PM
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That was the point, Jim. Do you think LaoTze is writing a book about farming....???
Yes, horses don't breed in the battlefield. Normally, they breed in the farms.
What LaoTze was saying is that the people are at war, so the horses cannot breed. However, if they do breed, they have to do it in the battlefield. Indeed, he was suggesting that war was causing inconvenience to the people. LaoTze was using horse as an illustration to express his thoughts. That was why he placed the war horses in the battlefield to breed.
戎 馬 生 於 郊 。
rong2 ma3 sheng1 yu2 jiao1.
war horse bear on frontier
Jim, you had it right by using the word 'frontier' to begin with; but why did you change it to 'farms' in your interpretation.
PS....
Again LaoTze was accustomed to use paradox to say not what he meant. If one took it literally, then..............
I think you do aware that was a paradox statement. That's what triggered you to use 'farms' in your final interpretation....
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CD speaks doesn't know.
TTC knows doesn't speak. |
Edited by - ChiDragon on 07/20/2010 2:21:35 PM |
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jimclatfelter
USA
1026 Posts |
Posted - 07/20/2010 : 3:56:45 PM
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It doesn't matter if it's farms, frontier, outskirts, countryside, border, or outside the city. All of these terms have been used. It doesn't change the meaning. Farms are in the countryside outside the city. That's where horses are bred in wartime. They are not bred in the battlefield. They are bred on farms, and those farms would normally be used to produce food instead. Without Dao in the world, farms on the outskirts are used to breed horses.
Would you like this better?
With Dao in the world
Race horses manure the fields.
Without Dao in the world
War horses breed on the frontier.
Laozi was saying exactly what he meant here.
With Dao in the world, horses would be used for their manure and their work on the farms and in the fields.
This is no paradox. It's pure fact. Laozi is using war as an example of the desire to gain and of not knowing when you have enough.
No disaster exceeds not knowing what is enough.
No fault exceeds the desire to gain.
Who knows what is enough has enough indeed.
D.C. Lau:
When the way prevails in the empire, fleet-footed horses are relegated to ploughing in the fields;
When the way does not prevail in the empire, war-horses breed on the border.
Witter Bynner:
In a land where the way of life is understood
Race-horses are led back to serve the field;
In a land where the way of life is not understood
War-horses are bred on the autumn yield.
Check any English translation you like.
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ChiDragon
USA
2863 Posts |
Posted - 07/20/2010 : 5:45:35 PM
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Jim....
I am looking at this with refinement.
郊(jiao1): outskirt; wilderness.
戎 馬 生 於 郊 。
War horses are bear in the wilderness.
In the ancient time, soldiers camped in the wilderness with no farms, there, because they are readily to move out anytime. Normally, domesticate horses are bred in the farm as you said. The purpose of a war horse is for fighting in a war; it was not to be bred where the soldiers are. It was ashamed to bring the horses to a war and depriving the rights to live normally. If there was no war going on, the horses could have been bred in a farm. Thus TaoTze was using war horses describing the abnormality in a war situation.
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CD speaks doesn't know.
TTC knows doesn't speak. |
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Nina
USA
6392 Posts |
Posted - 07/21/2010 : 12:28:52 PM
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Well, here's a third opinion........
I think you guys are getting hung up on the word "breed" for 生 sheng1.
生 sheng1 also means - life, to live and grow.
Another way to look at the horse lines:
卻 que4 is a pictograph of a sneering or pouting face - when a person has to reject or refuse something that he desires. So the meanings as: refuse, reject, turn away.
走馬 zou3ma3 as a compound character is "trained horses." Horses at the time were trained for battle, racing and pulling chariots. Rarely were they used to pull carts by farmers. They used oxen.
卻 走 馬 以 糞
turned away trained horses for manure
trained horses are set free to fertilize the countryside.
(Instead of training the horses for personal greed, they were allowed to follow their own nature.)
戎 馬 生 於 郊
army horses live and grow in suburbs
army horses thrive in the outskirts of the city.
(Horses were an essential part of any army, and the more horses a ruler had the more powerful he was. The training grounds were in the outskirts of the city - what we could call the suburbs.)
These lines are troublesome for me:
With Dao in the world
Without Dao in the world
How could Dao either be in the world or not in the world?  Dao is always everywhere?
That's why I chose:
When the world is in tune with Dao
When the world is out of tune with Dao
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ChiDragon
USA
2863 Posts |
Posted - 07/21/2010 : 12:56:57 PM
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天 下 有 道 ，
tian1 xia4 you3 dao4,
heaven under have Dao
If the country was ruled with benevolence.
卻 走 馬 以 糞 。
que4 zou3 ma3 yi3 fen4.
Then, let the horses run on mature.
Then, let the horses return back home to do farming.
天 下 無 道 ，
tian1 xia4 wu2 dao4,
heaven under without dao
Without Dao in the world
If the country is ruled without benevolence,
戎 馬 生 於 郊 。
rong2 ma3 sheng1 yu2 jiao1.
war horse bear on wilderness.
Then, even pregnant horses have to going to war.
******
天 下 有 道 ， 卻 走 馬 以 糞 。
tian1 xia4 you3 dao4, que4 zou3 ma3 yi3 fen4.
If the country is ruled with benevolence, then, let the horses return back home to do farming.
天 下 無 道 ， 戎 馬 生 於 郊 。
tian1 xia4 wu2 dao4, rong2 ma3 sheng1 yu2 jiao1.
If the country is ruled without benevolence, then, even pregnant horses have to go to war.
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CD speaks doesn't know.
TTC knows doesn't speak. |
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jimclatfelter
USA
1026 Posts |
Posted - 07/21/2010 : 4:09:32 PM
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With Dao in the world = When the world is in tune with Dao
Without Dao in the world = When the world is out of tune with Dao
Hi Nina,
I have no trouble understanding that "Dao in the world" means that people are in tune with Dao. I like that you spelled it out in your translation. For my translation, I feel the meaning of the shorter line will be self-evident to the reader.
Yes, Dao is everywhere. And by "in tune" I mean being centered in Dao. Dao is both the center and the whole of what is present, both the hub and the spokes.
War horses breed on the farms.
I can't see that "War horses live on the farms" would convey the meaning. They are breeding war horses, not giving them a nice home in the country.
I am pretty happy with my translation for this verse. I like keeping it short and close to the original. I like this verse. The use of the horse as a symbol to tie in war and and the desire-for-more is really nice, typical Laozi style.
Jim
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Nina
USA
6392 Posts |
Posted - 07/21/2010 : 4:24:33 PM
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Okay, Jim.
But when you say........
War horses breed on the farms.
.......That can sound like they're having fun too....... breeding.
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jimclatfelter
USA
1026 Posts |
Posted - 07/21/2010 : 4:57:52 PM
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That can sound like they're having fun too....... breeding.
LOL! I guess there are benefits to every job.
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ChiDragon
USA
2863 Posts |
Posted - 07/22/2010 : 11:10:22 AM
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quote:
[i]Originally posted by ChiDragon[/i]
[br]天 下 有 道 ，
tian1 xia4 you3 dao4,
heaven under have Dao
If the country was ruled with benevolence.
卻 走 馬 以 糞 。
que4 zou3 ma3 yi3 fen4.
Then, let the horses run on mature. <------ in error in spelling
Then, let the horses return back home to do farming.
天 下 無 道 ，
tian1 xia4 wu2 dao4,
heaven under without dao
Without Dao in the world
If the country is ruled without benevolence,
戎 馬 生 於 郊 。
rong2 ma3 sheng1 yu2 jiao1.
war horse bear on wilderness.
Then, even pregnant horses have to going to war.
******
天 下 有 道 ， 卻 走 馬 以 糞 。
tian1 xia4 you3 dao4, que4 zou3 ma3 yi3 fen4.
If the country is ruled with benevolence, then, let the horses return back home to do farming.
天 下 無 道 ， 戎 馬 生 於 郊 。
tian1 xia4 wu2 dao4, rong2 ma3 sheng1 yu2 jiao1.
If the country is ruled without benevolence, then, even pregnant horses have to go to war.
Correction.....
Incorrect:
卻 走 馬 以 糞 。
que4 zou3 ma3 yi3 fen4.
Then, let the horses run on mature.
Then, let the horses return back home to do farming.
Correct:
卻 走 馬 以 糞 。
que4 zou3 ma3 yi3 fen4.
Then, let the horses run on manure.
Then, let the horses return back home to do farming.
I just realized how easy to make a mistake in English by misspell a word with one letter. The word in a sentence will change the meaning within context. Sometimes, the mistake of the word might change the idea of the whole thought or it has no meaning and makes no sense at all.
In order to make a mistake in Chinese, the whole character had to be replaced to change the thought or logic of the sentence. The incorrect character in the phrase stands out like a sore thumb by the logic in the text or context. A mistake can be easily detected if the reader was fluently familiar with the language. Otherwise, misinterpretation will occur if the reader took the misused character for granted.
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CD speaks doesn't know.
TTC knows doesn't speak. |
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ChiDragon
USA
2863 Posts |
Posted - 07/22/2010 : 11:43:12 AM
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FYI....
War horses were bought from the Mongolian breed. They were bred in the wild for better horses. They are not war horses until they were ridden by soldiers going to war. They are called "war horses" because they are at war with the soldiers. Thus the soldiers do not raise war horses at the front line. In fact, they get the supplies and horses ahead of time from the ruler.
The reason LaoTze said:
戎 馬 生 於 郊 。
rong2 ma3 sheng1 yu2 jiao1.
war horse bear on wilderness.
That was his metaphor to say:
How sad, in a war, the horses have to be bear their offsprings in the battlefield so to speak.
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CD speaks doesn't know.
TTC knows doesn't speak. |
Edited by - ChiDragon on 07/22/2010 11:47:12 AM |
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Nina
USA
6392 Posts |
Posted - 07/26/2010 : 11:10:17 AM
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quote:
[i]Originally posted by ChiDragon[/i]
How sad, in a war, the horses have to be bear their offsprings in the battlefield so to speak.
The war horses were probably geldings.
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ChiDragon
USA
2863 Posts |
Posted - 07/26/2010 : 11:40:30 AM
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ass-u-me............
I didn't know LoaTze was that dumb by using gelded horses as an illustration to bear their offspring in the battlefield.
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CD speaks doesn't know.
TTC knows doesn't speak. |
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Nina
USA
6392 Posts |
Posted - 07/26/2010 : 12:20:34 PM
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Of course not.
That's why 生 sheng1 doesn't mean "breed." It means "live and grow." |
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ChiDragon
USA
2863 Posts |
Posted - 07/26/2010 : 1:02:41 PM
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yes...
生(sheng1) does mean "breed" and "live and grow."
One has to know how was the character used in context.
戎 馬 生 於 郊 。
rong2 ma3 sheng1 yu2 jiao1.
war horse bear on wilderness.
The meaning of sheng1 is inclusive in the phrase. War horses are to bear, live and grow in the battlefield.
The proper translation is:
1. War horse bears in wilderness.
If it was translated as:
2. War horse lives in wilderness.
Then, it could had said as:
3. War horse dies in wilderness.
However, if one narrows down the meaning in context, LaoTze's first choice of meaning would be number 1.
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CD speaks doesn't know.
TTC knows doesn't speak. |
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Nina
USA
6392 Posts |
Posted - 07/26/2010 : 6:01:20 PM
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CD-
YOUR first choice might be #1, but to say that would be Laozi's choice?
As you said...... Laozi wasn't dumb.
No army would want pregnant mares on their battlefields, nor would they want stallions trying to jump on the back of a mare in heat when they were engaged in battle.
I think Laozi was making a comparison between horses who were allowed to follow their natural course by romping through the fields - probably procreating merrily and providing manure - as opposed to those who lived their lives on the battlefield - controlled and confined by soldiers.
When the world is in out of tune with Dao, people not only try to control horses and prevent them from doing what they naturally do, but people also try to control others in the same way. Greed is a nasty bedfellow.
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ChiDragon
USA
2863 Posts |
Posted - 07/26/2010 : 6:30:14 PM
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You be surprised how many translated, in onkellotus, this line as:
1. War horses are bear/give birth/bred/produced/thrive in the wilderness/battlefield/suburbs/border/frontier/outskirt.
Sounds familiar......???
"When the world is without Dao, army horses thrive in the outskirts of the city."
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CD speaks doesn't know.
TTC knows doesn't speak. |
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Topic |
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Verse 46
