| Author |
 Topic  |
|
Stigweard
Australia
81 Posts |
 Posted - 07/25/2010 : 4:55:34 PM
|
Chapter 1 of Laozi contains two concepts that are pivotal in Taoist philosophy / ontology. They are:
Wú 無 and 有 Yòu.
As always I like to get stuck into the etymology of a character to excavate its deeper or true meaning. However, Wú 無 obviously has some deep cultural significance that an ignorant westerner like me is not privy to.
Case in point:
The character for Wú 無 comes from this ancient character:
It is the image of a dancing person with trailers:
So how the blazes does this mean: negative, no, not; lack, have no; invisible, nothing etc. ???
The best I have is the implication that the trailers were meant to hold the attention of the audience and the dancer themselves becomes invisible, not there.
Also to be kept in mind is that Wú 無 and 有 Yòu are a dyad; they are a pair that must be considered polarity aspects of Tao.
Yòu 有 is appropriately much clearer in it's etymology:
We have the right hand grasping or touching flesh, so it's meanings include: tangible, to have, to possess, to be present, to exist, to be etc. So we can gain deeper understanding of the ambiguous Wú 無 by contrasting with the clarity of 有 Yòu.
So Wú 無 must mean: to have not, to be non-existent, absent, nothing, intangible.
|
Edited by - Stigweard on 07/25/2010 4:56:31 PM |
|
|
jimclatfelter
USA
1026 Posts |
Posted - 07/25/2010 : 6:12:49 PM
|
Thanks for the helpful information, Stigweard.
Since Laozi begins the DDJ with this pair of words that represent complementary aspects [views] of the Dao, I agree with you that 無 wú and 有 yòu pivotal to understanding his message.
Jim
|
 |
|
|
Nina
USA
6392 Posts |
Posted - 07/25/2010 : 6:13:33 PM
|
Some have thought the etymology of 無 wu2 depicts dancers, but there's another more accurate explanation IMO.
無 wu2 shows:
卄卄 A multitude of 人 people cutting down 木木 a forest, clearing a tract of land. In an alternate Seal Script character, 兦 was placed between the trees, denoting that they had vanished.
Nothing remains of the trees that were once in the forest, but the land will soon be sowed with new plants.
Components:
廿 nian4 Twenty (Composed of 十 shí "ten" doubled and joined at the bottom.) (Written as 卄.)
人 ren2 person, human being
木 mu4 a tree (Multiple trees written as 灬 in the modern form.)
兦 wang2 a person who has been covered, buried. (Vanished)
In the earlier texts of the DDJ, 無 wu2 was written as:
亡 wang2
入 To enter a corner.
To enter into a hiding place, where one would seem to vanish.
Components:
入 ru4 enter, penetrate
L yin to conceal, to cover (used only as a component)
無 wu2 and 有 you4 were used in the DDJ as descriptive adjectives or adverbs. Those who think they were used as individual concepts are following the ideas of later "scholars" who were influenced by the Buddhist ideology of "existence" and "nonexistence"....... IMO and in the opinion of many others.
P.S. Stig - I don't mind you copying and pasting my answer here to the other forums you write these same messages on, but I'd appreciate it if you cited your source. Thank you.
|
|
|
|
ChiDragon
USA
2863 Posts |
Posted - 07/25/2010 : 8:05:25 PM
|
quote:
posted by stigweard
Chapter 1 of Laozi contains two concepts that are pivotal in Taoist philosophy / ontology. They are:
Wú 無 and 有 Yòu.
As always I like to get stuck into the etymology of a character to excavate its deeper or true meaning. However, Wú 無 obviously has some deep cultural significance that an ignorant westerner like me is not privy to.
I am glad you brought this up. Now-a-days, the native scholars had decided to place a comma after the characters 'wu' and 'you' which made them used as Proper Nouns.
Lines 3 and 4 of Chapter 1
3. 無(Wu2)，名天地之始﹔
4. 有(You3)，名萬物之母。
3. Invisible(Wu2) was the name given to Tao at the origin of heaven and earth.
4. Visible(You3) was the name given to Tao as the mother of all things.
LaoTze used Wu/You in Chapter 1 and ONLY in lines 3 and 4 as proper nouns. In lines 3 and 4, LaoTze was saying it is either one sees or doesn't see Tao. When Tao is invisible, LaoTze called it 'Wu'. When Tao is visible, LaoTze called it 'You'. Indeed, no one else uses Wu/You like the way LaoTZe does. That's why it was very confusing to the westerners as well as to some natives.
In lines 5 and 6, wu2/you3 are used as adjectives.
5. 故常無(wu2)，欲以觀其妙﹔
6. 常有(you3)，欲以觀其徼。
5. Thus, always invisible(wu2), would observe its subtlety.
6. Always visible(you3), would observe its boundary.
PS...
I would advise the readers to consider that how the characters were used by LaoTze for his own meaning instead of the ordinary meaning used in daily life. Another word, do not interpret the character alone for its meaning but the actual meaning in the actual application by the author.
-----------------------------
CD speaks doesn't know.
TTC knows doesn't speak. |
Edited by - ChiDragon on 07/25/2010 8:16:16 PM |
|
|
|
Stigweard
Australia
81 Posts |
Posted - 07/25/2010 : 9:38:25 PM
|
quote:
[i]Originally posted by Nina[/i]
[br]Some have thought the etymology of 無 wu2 depicts dancers, but there's another more accurate explanation IMO.
無 wu2 shows:
卄卄 A multitude of 人 people cutting down 木木 a forest, clearing a tract of land. In an alternate Seal Script character, 兦 was placed between the trees, denoting that they had vanished.
Nothing remains of the trees that were once in the forest, but the land will soon be sowed with new plants.
Components:
廿 nian4 Twenty (Composed of 十 shí "ten" doubled and joined at the bottom.) (Written as 卄.)
人 ren2 person, human being
木 mu4 a tree (Multiple trees written as 灬 in the modern form.)
兦 wang2 a person who has been covered, buried. (Vanished)
In the earlier texts of the DDJ, 無 wu2 was written as:
亡 wang2
入 To enter a corner.
To enter into a hiding place, where one would seem to vanish.
Components:
入 ru4 enter, penetrate
L yin to conceal, to cover (used only as a component)
無 wu2 and 有 you4 were used in the DDJ as descriptive adjectives or adverbs. Those who think they were used as individual concepts are following the ideas of later "scholars" who were influenced by the Buddhist ideology of "existence" and "nonexistence"....... IMO and in the opinion of many others.
P.S. Stig - I don't mind you copying and pasting my answer here to the other forums you write these same messages on, but I'd appreciate it if you cited your source. Thank you.
Groovy work Nina. For my own benefit and study, is there an online location where I can find the references to your research?
Oh and yes most certainly I will reference your work  |
|
|
|
Stigweard
Australia
81 Posts |
Posted - 07/25/2010 : 10:55:49 PM
|
So just to confirm Nina, you read Wú míng and Yǒu míng as meaning "To have no name" and "To have name" respectively rather than to make Wú and Yǒu being polar concepts on their own. Is this correct?
This would be consistent with the opening two lines. |
Edited by - Stigweard on 07/25/2010 10:56:50 PM |
|
|
|
Nina
USA
6392 Posts |
Posted - 07/26/2010 : 10:58:25 AM
|
quote:
[i]Originally posted by Stigweard[/i]
For my own benefit and study, is there an online location where I can find the references to your research?
That's cool you're investigating the etymology of the Chinese characters, Stig. It's really very interesting stuff.
I've relied mostly on books and the Wenlin software for my research - too much weird info on the net. But I found this book I've had since 1964 is on the internet now - in Google books: Chinese Characters (Their origin, etymology, history, classification and signification) by Dr. L. Wieger, S. J.
If you go to this
Link
and scroll down to page 36 you'll find 無 wu2.
Also, if you go to Richard Sears' site you can look at the various ways 無 wu2 was written in the Seal and Bronze characters. Here's the
Link
Keeping in mind that Chinese characters were comprised of various components that were used repeatedly in other characters, it seems implausible to me that 無 wu2 was a pictograph of a dancing person.
As for 亡 wang2 being used in the earlier texts, you can look at the actual Guodian slips on these pages at my web site:
The Guodian Laozi
Also.....
The Comparison Charts are available for download at:
This page
quote:
So just to confirm Nina, you read Wú míng and Yǒu míng as meaning "To have no name" and "To have name" respectively rather than to make Wú and Yǒu being polar concepts on their own. Is this correct?
Yes. I think that's the point of DDJ 1 - talking about names and how the word "Dao" can limit one's understanding of it. And how any word (name) we give to anything can limit our understanding of it.
Everything started out without needing to be named or categorized.
When they were seen as things that needed to be nurtured, they were then given names.
The Neo-Daoists (including Wang Bi) came up with a different viewpoint IMO.
As I said elsewhere, the Mawangdui A and B used 萬
物 wan4wu4 (all things) in both those lines, whereas the later versions changed it to 天地 tian1di4 (heaven and earth, the universe) in the first line.
It's fun observing the different philosophies - by those ancients and by people today.  |
|
|
|
jimclatfelter
USA
1026 Posts |
Posted - 07/26/2010 : 12:51:02 PM
|
The Neo-Daoists (including Wang Bi) came up with a different viewpoint IMO.
I don't mind saying, Nina, that my view of the DDJ is Neo-Daoist, but I consider it far removed from Buddhism. You didn't say here that the idea of wu and you as 'polar concepts' is Buddhist. I think you have said so in the past. Did I get that wrong? If it wasn't the original view of Dao, and I'm not saying it wasn't, then it's at least Neo-Daoist and not Buddhist. That's my view. For me, personally, it's important because I find Buddhism's negativity a bit repulsive. Buddhism doesn't have the two-in-one wu-you view of the Daoists. I find this view in the DDJ -- as it was read by the Neo-Daoists -- the most helpful to me. Whether it was the original view or a later one, it's the one I find compelling. I don't think there's a chance in a million that it came from India. To call it Buddhist seems to me like a way of dismissing it as inauthentic.
Buddhism had entered China long before the Jin period. Given the similarity between the Daoist concept of wu and the Buddhist emphasis on “emptiness,” it has been suggested that Neo-Daoism was influenced by Buddhist philosophy from the start. Though possible, there is so far no strong evidence linking He Yan, Wang Bi and other early Neo-Daoists to Buddhism. On the contrary, it is clear that xuanxue had exerted considerable influence on the development of Chinese Buddhism. From the fourth century onward, Buddhist masters frequently engaged in Pure Conversation and challenged xuanxue scholars at their own game.
quoted from: http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/neo-taoism/
edited to correct grammar |
Edited by - jimclatfelter on 07/26/2010 12:54:43 PM |
|
|
|
ChiDragon
USA
2863 Posts |
Posted - 07/26/2010 : 1:18:46 PM
|
jimclatfelter.....
I'm very glad that you are very crystal clear on the Taoist philosophy. Most people are mixing Buddhism philosophy into the DDJ which means that they didn't really go deep into studying the DDJ. Indeed, the DDJ is a stand alone document. IMO Those who bring in different philosophical idea into the interpretation of the DDJ were just not reading it properly or just lack of understanding. In a similar situation, some Christians were tried to squeeze some Christianity ideas and believes into the DDJ. I guess they failed.
-----------------------------
CD speaks doesn't know.
TTC knows doesn't speak. |
Edited by - ChiDragon on 07/26/2010 1:31:02 PM |
|
|
|
ChiDragon
USA
2863 Posts |
Posted - 07/26/2010 : 3:02:40 PM
|
quote:
Originally posted by Stigweard
So just to confirm Nina, you read Wú míng and Yǒu míng as meaning "To have no name" and "To have name" respectively rather than to make Wú and Yǒu being polar concepts on their own. Is this correct?
This would be consistent with the opening two lines.
There is a nuance.
Wú míng: nameless; no name. It doesn't mean "To have no name"
Yǒu míng: have a name. It doesn't mean "To have name"
"This would be consistent with the opening two lines." It is a vague statement, can you be a little more specific....???
-----------------------------
CD speaks doesn't know.
TTC knows doesn't speak. |
|
|
|
Nina
USA
6392 Posts |
Posted - 07/26/2010 : 5:48:40 PM
|
Thanks, Jim.
What I think is....
The current view of 無 wu2 as "nothingness" and/or "nonexistence" is tinged with the Buddhist ideology. In China, Buddhism, Daoism and Confucianism have been taught together, so most Chinese people don't try to separate them.
The Neo-Daoists like Wang Bi, Heshang Gong and others were heavily influenced by the Yi Jing. They translated and commented on it as well. So, it seems natural that they'd find yin/yang throughout the DDJ too - even though Laozi only mentions yin and yang once in the entire book. They were also students of Confucianism, so that influenced them as well.
Looking at the etymology of 無 wu2 - as people cutting down trees in a forest - doesn't bring to my mind the idea of "nothingness." The forest will grow new trees. Sometimes people or Nature will get rid of old growth to promote new growth. We empty ourselves of stuff so new things can enter.
I suppose if some prefer the idea of 無 wu2 being a dancing person (or shaman as some suggest) - the shaman would have the ability to make things seem to vanish, but that didn't mean they weren't actually there. It just provided a new way of looking at things instead of simply dismissing them by the names people give them.
無 wu2 describes something we're "without" at the moment. 有 You4 describes something we "have" at the moment. Without or with - names, desires, etc. - both fit together, as Laozi points out in DDJ 1 IMO.
|
|
|
|
jimclatfelter
USA
1026 Posts |
Posted - 07/26/2010 : 7:13:50 PM
|
The forest will grow new trees.
That's exactly what Daoist non-presence does. Non-existence is the root. Life springs [sheng1] from the root. Buddhist emptiness isn't like that at all. Trees spring from bare ground. Non-existence is this bare ground. Life springs from it and returns to it. Your entomology for wu2 convinces me much more clearly that it means non-presence than the dancing person image does. It fits with so many of Laozi's other images.
Laozi only mentions yin and yang once in the entire book.
True, but there's a pair of polar complements in most of the verses. I don't find any of them similar to the yin and yang of the Yijing. Laozi's take on yin and yang is quite different form that of the Yijing.
Well, we have different viewpoints on this. I'm willing to consider that the wu-you polarity could be Neo-Daoist but not Buddhist. I see a great deal of difference between Daoist and Buddhist non-existence. I think I might be a Neo-Neo-Daoist, since I make more claims about wu-you even than Wang Bi.
|
|
|
|
Nina
USA
6392 Posts |
Posted - 07/26/2010 : 7:34:36 PM
|
Cool, Jim.
I don't think we really disagree too much on this.
I think Laozi poses the opposites as a demonstration of how people prefer one over the other. Or they think they can find a middle ground "balance" where they can rest contentedly without ever going to either extreme. Trying to retain either extreme - or the middle - is a fruitless endeavor. And it makes one super-critical of others.
I don't think you're a neo-neo-daoist. I don't think you're any sort of Daoist - and I mean that as a compliment. I think you're a free thinker who is finding a way to get rid of "Daoist" notions and find what sings to your own heart.
|
|
|
|
jimclatfelter
USA
1026 Posts |
Posted - 07/26/2010 : 8:04:18 PM
|
I don't think you're any sort of Daoist. I think you're a free thinker.
Okay, I like that. I'm definitely not a groupie. |
|
|
|
ChiDragon
USA
2863 Posts |
Posted - 07/27/2010 : 10:53:29 AM
|
舞(wu3): dance
Link:舞(wu3)
-----------------------------
CD speaks doesn't know.
TTC knows doesn't speak. |
|
|
|
lienshan
Denmark
655 Posts |
Posted - 07/27/2010 : 12:47:22 PM
|
quote:
[i]Originally posted by Stigweard[/i]
Chapter 1 of Laozi contains two concepts that are pivotal in Taoist philosophy / ontology. They are:
Wú 無 and 有 Yòu.
Also to be kept in mind is that Wú 無 and 有 Yòu are a dyad;
they are a pair that must be considered polarity aspects of Tao.
The consequence of placing a comma after the characters wu and you making them Proper Nouns is,
that Dao becomes a subject of polarity aspects; a subject of wu yin and you yang.
The relationship between wu and you is like between darkness and the dark of darkness.
That's how I read and understand chapter 1 |
|
|
|
lienshan
Denmark
655 Posts |
Posted - 07/27/2010 : 2:43:44 PM
|
An example; Laozi introduces two persons to us in the lines 5 and 6:
Mr Wu is constantly without desire, observingly even if subtle.
Mr You is constantly with desire, observantly and inspecting.
When Mr Wu sees a subtle house, then Mr You sees an interesting investment.
When Mr Wu sees a subtle tree, then Mr You sees a building material.
Can Mr You be like Mr Wu? Can Mr Wu be like Mr You?
The answers are yes and no according to line 2 .....
That's why it says 'lessen desire' in chapter 19
|
|
|
|
Nina
USA
6392 Posts |
Posted - 07/27/2010 : 6:50:52 PM
|
lienshan-
There's nothing wrong with desires IMO.
Maybe what Laozi was suggesting is that if we can tune into the process of Dao, all our desires are fulfilled.
I'll be a Ms. Wuyou. But my interpretation is different from yours.
When you don't desire anything, everything becomes significant.
When you do desire things, everything has limitations.
Both make for a delightful life!
|
|
|
|
Nina
USA
6392 Posts |
Posted - 07/27/2010 : 6:54:40 PM
|
CD-
Thanks for that link. The feet at the bottom could represent a person walking and dancing across a field that had no more obstructions (trees) in the way.
|
|
|
|
lienshan
Denmark
655 Posts |
Posted - 07/28/2010 : 01:22:00 AM
|
quote:
[i]Originally posted by Nina[/i]
I'll be a Ms. Wuyou.
Wuyou is the mohist term, that Laozi deals with in chapter 19 (robbers and thieves have no have).
Ms. You corresponds to 'mother of all things' and Mr. Wu to 'origin of heaven and earth'.
The first is a relationship of possession and the latter a relationship of no possession.
two who
same view
different naming
same language / same stomach
The received versions prioritize, that Mr. Wu and Ms You do not name the viewed different,
because they speak different languages.
The Mawangdui versions prioritize, that Mr. Wu and Ms You do not name the viewed different,
because they have different needs. |
|
|
|
Nina
USA
6392 Posts |
Posted - 07/28/2010 : 6:59:24 PM
|
lienshan-
As long as people try to differentiate between 無 wu2 and 有 You4, there will be disagreements. Prioritizing one over the other?
Ms./Mr. wuyouwuyouwuyouwuyouwuyouwuyou
What do you wu and what do you you? So silly!
|
|
|
|
Topic |
|
|
|
The Mystery of Wú 無 -- Nothingness
