| Author |
 Topic  |
|
|
jimclatfelter
USA
1026 Posts |
 Posted - 07/26/2010 : 08:37:52 AM
|
知不知上，不知知病。
夫唯病病，是以不病。
聖人不病，以其病病。
夫唯病病，是以不病。
Words in bold only in onkellotus version. 
I've included both versions, though the extra words in onkellotus seem redundant. I got the Chinese and pinyin from Nina's Wang Bi version.
無 wu 識 zhi
71
知 zhi1 不 bu4 知 zhi1 上 shang4 ，
know not know best
Knowing one doesn't know is best.
不 bu4 知 zhi1 知 zhi1 病 bing4 。
not know know ill
Not knowing one doesn't know is an illness.
夫 fu2 唯 wei2 病 bing4 病 bing4 ，
then only ill ill
Being sick of this illness
是 shi4 以 yi3 不 bu4 病 bing4 。
this how not ill
Is the way end it.
聖 sheng4 人 ren2 不 bu4 病 bing4 ，
wise person not ill
Sages are not ill
以 yi3 其 qi2 病 bing4 病 bing4 。
because they ill ill
because they are sick of this illness.
[夫 唯 病 病 ， additional words in onkellotus version
then only ill ill Being sick of this illness]
是 shi 以 yi3 不 bu4 病 bing4 。
this how not ill
Thus they are not ill.
71 [onkellotus]
Knowing one doesn't know is best.
Not knowing one doesn't know is an illness.
Being sick of this illness is the way end it.
Sages are not ill because they are sick of the illness.
Sick of being ill, they are no longer ill.
or shorter version:
Knowing one doesn't know is best.
Not knowing one doesn't know is an illness.
Being sick of this illness is the way end it.
Sages are not ill because they are sick of the illness.
Thus they are not ill.
|
|
|
Nina
USA
6392 Posts |
Posted - 07/26/2010 : 6:10:14 PM
|
Jim-
Most of the DDJ scholars agree with you. Those additional lines were added in "some" Chinese versions, but not in the Wang Bi as far as I've found.
But then...... we have some English interpreters who claim their versions are translations when they never looked at the Chinese characters. The various Chinese versions can be confusing, huh? Will the REAL Wang Bi version please stand up? 
Like you said in this chapter:
Not knowing one doesn't know is an illness.
|
 |
|
|
ChiDragon
USA
2863 Posts |
Posted - 07/26/2010 : 6:57:01 PM
|
Received version
1. 知不知,
1.zhi4 bu4 zhi4,
2. 尚矣；
2. shang4 yi3;
3. 不知知，
3. bu4 zhi4 zhi4,
4. 病也。
4. bing4 ye3.
5. 聖人不病，
5. sheng4 ren2 bu4 bing4,
6. 以其病病。
6. yi2 qi2 bing4 bing4,
7. 夫唯病病，
7. fu2 wei2 bing4 bing4,
8. 是以不病。
8. shi4 yi2 bu4 bing4.
Sino-English
1. One knows what he doesn't know.
2. Is the best.
3. One doesn't know but think he knows.
4. It's a weakness.
5. A wise man has no weakness.
6. He treated a weakness as a weakness.
7. Because he knows his weakness is a weakness.
8. Hence, he has no weakness.
-----------------------------
CD speaks doesn't know.
TTC knows doesn't speak. |
|
|
|
Nina
USA
6392 Posts |
Posted - 07/26/2010 : 7:21:49 PM
|
No weakness???????? 
Every person has weakness. Unless you're thinking the DDJ is suggesting everyone should have no weakness - be strong? What a silly notion, and one the DDJ suggests is going against the process of Dao.
People get ill and sick (病 bing4) because they try to have "no weakness."
|
|
|
|
ChiDragon
USA
2863 Posts |
Posted - 07/26/2010 : 9:41:19 PM
|
Who says no weakness....???
Can you read lines 5 through 8 again...??? What are lines 6 and 7 saying....???
-----------------------------
CD speaks doesn't know.
TTC knows doesn't speak. |
|
|
|
Nina
USA
6392 Posts |
Posted - 07/27/2010 : 7:15:29 PM
|
You said it, CD:
Hence, he has no weakness.
|
|
|
|
ChiDragon
USA
2863 Posts |
Posted - 07/27/2010 : 8:01:57 PM
|
5. A wise man has no weakness.
6. He treated a weakness as a weakness.
7. Because he knows his weakness is a weakness.
8. Hence, he has no weakness.
A wise man knows better that he has a weakness and admitting to himself that he has weakness; and he coped with it. Hence, he's no longer has a weakness. As opposed to, someone that doesn't know he has weakness and cannot deal with it.
-----------------------------
CD speaks doesn't know.
TTC knows doesn't speak. |
|
|
|
Nina
USA
6392 Posts |
Posted - 07/28/2010 : 7:20:39 PM
|
CD-
I think "weakness" is a bad choice of an English word for 病 bing4. In the English language, "weakness" can be akin to being a wimp. Someone who is afraid to be who they are because they're always trying to please others.
A person who "doesn't know but thinks he knows" isn't being weak or a wimp. They're bringing more turmoil (sickness) upon themselves.
A wise person gets rid of that sickness because he realizes that everyone has different views about things, and doesn't need to claim he has the definitive answers to anything. You see that as relating to "weakness"?
|
|
|
|
ChiDragon
USA
2863 Posts |
Posted - 07/28/2010 : 7:31:42 PM
|
hmmmmmm......
Is sickness, in English, mean something else too other than sick due to ill health....???
-----------------------------
CD speaks doesn't know.
TTC knows doesn't speak. |
|
|
|
ChiDragon
USA
2863 Posts |
Posted - 07/28/2010 : 10:59:09 PM
|
1. 知不知,
2. 尚矣；
3. 不知知，
4. 病也。
5. 聖人不病，
6. 以其病病。
7. 夫唯病病，
8. 是以不病。
Sino-English
1. One knows what he doesn't know.
2. Is the best.
3. One doesn't know but think he knows.
4. It's a sickness.
5. A wise man has no sickness.
6. He treated a sickness as a sickness.
7. Because he knows his sickness is a sickness.
8. Hence, he has no sickness.
This is the direct translation, but the intended meaning for 'sickness' was 'weakness' in the original classic text. By using the direct translation of the character (病 bing4): sickness, what does that mean in English thinking....??? How would you interpret it as the way I have it now...???
-----------------------------
CD speaks doesn't know.
TTC knows doesn't speak. |
|
|
|
jimclatfelter
USA
1026 Posts |
Posted - 07/29/2010 : 08:47:04 AM
|
3. One doesn't know but think he knows.
4. It's a sickness.
It's a mental sickness or mental weakness, a delusion.
5. A wise man has no sickness.
6. He treated a sickness as a sickness.
7. Because he knows his sickness is a sickness.
8. Hence, he has no sickness.
Wise people recognize their own delusions. Thus they get beyond them.
|
|
|
|
ChiDragon
USA
2863 Posts |
Posted - 07/29/2010 : 10:33:52 AM
|
Thank you, Nina and Jim.
Now, I feel more comfortable with the direct translation in this case. After 2500 years, the east and west do think a like. GREAT......!!! 
-----------------------------
CD speaks doesn't know.
TTC knows doesn't speak. |
|
|
|
jimclatfelter
USA
1026 Posts |
Posted - 07/31/2010 : 06:45:47 AM
|
Maybe?
Knowing one doesn't know is best.
Not knowing one doesn't know is a delusion.
Being sick of this delusion is the way end it.
Sages are not delusional because they are sick of the delusion.
Thus they are not delusional.
|
|
|
|
ChiDragon
USA
2863 Posts |
Posted - 07/31/2010 : 1:13:27 PM
|
Jim.....
3. 不知知，
Doesn't know know
3. One doesn't know but think he knows.
4. It's a sickness.
Not knowing one doesn't know is a delusion.
There is only one negative in the original classic text. This statement has two. It seems to me that something got lost in the translation..
Edited to add:
Not knowing one doesn't know is not necessarily a delusion.
-----------------------------
CD speaks doesn't know.
TTC knows doesn't speak. |
Edited by - ChiDragon on 07/31/2010 1:17:56 PM |
|
|
|
jimclatfelter
USA
1026 Posts |
Posted - 07/31/2010 : 2:21:37 PM
|
Knowing one doesn't know is best.
Not knowing this is a delusion.
Being sick of the delusion is the way end it.
Sages are not delusional because they are sick of delusion.
Thus they are not delusional.
1. 知 zhi1 不 bu4 知 zhi1 上 shang4 ，
know not know best
Knowing one doesn't know is best.
2. 不 bu4 知 zhi1 知 zhi1 病 bing4 。
not know know ill
Not knowing one doesn't know is an illness.
Not knowing this is a delusion.
this = "one doesn't know" from the first line.
If I change the line using "this," there is still an implied negative. I thought it would be clearer if I spelled it out. Now that you bring it up, I think I like the shorter version better.
Knowing one doesn't know is best.
Not knowing this is a delusion.
Being sick of this delusion is the way end it.
Sages are not sick because they are sick of the delusion.
Thus they are not delusional.
|
|
|
|
Nina
USA
6392 Posts |
Posted - 07/31/2010 : 7:00:35 PM
|
Hey, if you guys are happy with "delusion", then go for it. Personally, I think it's too psychological and also makes judgments. How could you know if someone was delusional?
The character used in the FuYi and Mawangdui A and B is 尚 shang4 - instead of 上 shang4. I know you're sticking with the Wang Bi, but maybe even it can be seen in a different light?
尚 shang4 depicts an ornament above the window of a house, and can be translated as "elevated." Does that mean "best", or can it simply mean an elevation of one's attitude?
病 bing4 depicts a person lying in his bed, in his house experiencing a calamity.
The contrast between being elevated to the top of the house as opposed to being under the covers in the house gives me such a wonderful image.
There's such a sense of freedom - like flying through the air or feeling the wind brush you when you're on top of the house - accepting the fact that you don't know everything, and don't have to. If a person is always trying to show how much they know, they'd end up under the covers feeling sick if someone contradicted them.
Knowing that you don't know is uplifting.
If you tell people they're being "weak" or "delusional" - they'll just go further under the covers?
Or try to prove to you that they're not? 
|
|
|
|
jimclatfelter
USA
1026 Posts |
Posted - 07/31/2010 : 9:13:03 PM
|
Nina, I don't have to use delusional. But I do think this is the kind of sickness Laozi is referring to. But I can answer your question: How could you know if someone was delusional? If someone, including myself, claims to know all the answers, they're delusional. Laozi knew he didn't have all the answers. He had no delusions about that. Is that judgmental? I judge it isn't. You talk about a sense of freedom. I get a sense of freedom from admitting that I know very little about almost everything. I'm pretty good at a few things, but even at those things my knowledge is very limited.
This forum is interesting. I imagine it was like this in Laozi's days and Wang Bi's days. Everybody has an opinion. That's how it should be. We aren't made to agree. We each follow our own De, our own ziran. But I do know one thing. Some people see some of this the same way I do. Maybe not all the time on all the topics. But essentially the same. I imagine you have the same experience. People have found great value in the way you relate the meaning of the DDJ. There are so many opinions on the DDJ, and this is nothing new. It has been this way from the beginning. We're continuing the Daoist tradition.
Anyway, I'm not stuck on the word delusion. I do think that is the sickness that Laozi is talking about. And I like mixing up the words a little. One who is sick of sickness is not sick: that's not a very elegant way of putting it. I didn't think of the word delusion until CD asked me to explain what I meant by sickness. After I said, I liked it. I like the way it sounds too. |
|
|
|
ChiDragon
USA
2863 Posts |
Posted - 08/01/2010 : 10:01:11 AM
|
The character used in the FuYi and Mawangdui A and B is 尚 shang4 - instead of 上 shang4. I know you're sticking with the Wang Bi, but maybe even it can be seen in a different light?
FYI......
In the classic text, 尚(shang4) and 上(shang4) were interchangeable.
-----------------------------
CD speaks doesn't know.
TTC knows doesn't speak. |
|
|
|
ChiDragon
USA
2863 Posts |
Posted - 08/01/2010 : 10:16:54 AM
|
quote:
Originally posted by jimclatfelter
Jim....
1. 知 zhi1 不 bu4 知 zhi1 上 shang4 ，
know not know best
Knowing one doesn't know is best.
2. 不 bu4 知 zhi1 知 zhi1 病 bing4 。
not know know ill
Not knowing one doesn't know is an illness.
Not knowing this is a delusion.
this = "one doesn't know" from the first line.
If I change the line using "this," there is still an implied negative. I thought it would be clearer if I spelled it out. Now that you bring it up, I think I like the shorter version better.
1. 知 不 知 上 ，
zhi1 bu4 zhi1 shang4,
know not know best
Knowing one doesn't know is best.
2. 不 知 知 病 。
bu4 zhi1 zhi1 bing4 。
not know know sickness.
If you treat line 2 as an independent phrase, without relating to line 1, how would you translate it......???
-----------------------------
CD speaks doesn't know.
TTC knows doesn't speak. |
|
|
|
Nina
USA
6392 Posts |
Posted - 08/01/2010 : 5:08:42 PM
|
Jim-
I read over your new translation a few more times - let it swirl through me - and I do think you got across the idea Laozi is expressing. "Delusional" may not work with my interpretation of 病 bing4, but I don't think its that far off. And I think people would be able to get what you're saying.
I like this line:
Not knowing this is a delusion.
"This" refers to 知 zhi1 as "this knowledge", right?
I took the MWD A version:
不 bu4 知 zhi1 不 bu4 知 zhi1 病 bing4 矣 yi3
don't know not knowing sickness period
Not knowing that you don't know is sickness.
But....... I think either way says the same thing.
I really liked what you said about our discussions here being similar to the discussions the ancients might have had - about the DDJ and their various philosophies. As Laozi said in 71 - how cool is it to not think you know something for sure, but can be open to exploring and appreciating how others see things too. I've really enjoyed everyone's contributions here...... Makes my heart happy! |
|
|
| |
Topic |
|
Verse 71
