| Author |
 Topic  |
|
|
jimclatfelter
USA
1026 Posts |
 Posted - 07/27/2010 : 2:07:03 PM
|
48
為 學 日 益 。
wei2 xue2 ri4 yi4,
act study daily increase
In study one gains daily.
為 道 日 損 。
wei2 dao4 ri4 sun3.
act dao daily decrease
In Dao one loses daily,
損 之 又 損 ，
sun3 zhi1 you4 sun3,
reduce it and reduce
Loses and loses
以 至 於 無 為 。
yi3 zhi4 yu2 wu2 wei2.
until arrive at not doing
Until one arrives at nothing doing.
無 為 而 不 為 。
wu2 wei2 er2 wu2 bu4 wei2.
not do and not not do
Nothing doing and all is done.
取 天 下 常 以 無 事 ，
qu3 tian1 xia4 chang2 yi3 wu2 shi4,
gain heaven under always take no effort
One exerts no effort to gain the world.
及 其 有 事 ，
ji2 qi2 you3 shi4,
if one makes effort
[see line below]
不 足 以 取 天 下 。
bu4 zu2 yi3 qu3 tian1 xia4.
not enough to gain heaven under
No effort is enough to gain the world.
48 [shortened version]
In study one gains daily.
In Dao one loses daily,
Loses and loses till reaching nothing doing.
When nothing is doing, there's nothing not done.
One makes no effort to gain the world,
For no kind of effort is ever enough.
|
|
|
ChiDragon
USA
2863 Posts |
Posted - 07/28/2010 : 09:20:53 AM
|
取 天 下 常 以 無 事 ，
qu3 tian1 xia4 chang2 yi3 wu2 shi4,
gain heaven under always take no effort
One exerts no effort to gain the world.
Jim.....
One exerts no effort to gain the world.
How do you interpret this statement to hold up your logic.....????
-----------------------------
CD speaks doesn't know.
TTC knows doesn't speak. |
 |
|
|
jimclatfelter
USA
1026 Posts |
Posted - 07/28/2010 : 10:00:38 AM
|
One makes no effort to attempt to gain the world. = The world can't be gained. Those who try always fail.
My sentence is ambiguous. I need to change it.
One doesn't try to gain the world.
No effort is ever enough for this. |
Edited by - jimclatfelter on 07/28/2010 10:04:03 AM |
|
|
|
ChiDragon
USA
2863 Posts |
Posted - 07/28/2010 : 12:39:15 PM
|
My sentence is ambiguous. I need to change it.
Jim....
It was not your sentence is ambiguous; it was the original classic text; LoaTze's paradox.
Let's concentrate on this line.
取 天 下 常 以 無 事 ，
qu3 tian1 xia4 chang2 yi3 wu2 shi4,
Can you try to come up with more translations and keep its ambiguity....??? Thanks....
-----------------------------
CD speaks doesn't know.
TTC knows doesn't speak. |
|
|
|
jimclatfelter
USA
1026 Posts |
Posted - 07/28/2010 : 2:22:27 PM
|
Okay, I will go closer to Laozi = three lines instead of two.
To gain the world, make no effort.
If one makes an effort,
It will not be enough to gain the world.
edit = implies that one gains [already has] the world = no effort is required = it is a fait accompli |
Edited by - jimclatfelter on 07/28/2010 2:25:08 PM |
|
|
|
Nina
USA
6392 Posts |
Posted - 07/28/2010 : 6:19:16 PM
|
A couple of thoughts, Jim......
及 其 有 事 ，
ji2 qi2 you3 shi4,
if one makes effort
及 其 有 事
ji2 qi2 you3 shi4
overtake it has work
To overtake it requires work.
These lines are a bit strange in English:
Loses and loses till reaching nothing doing.
When nothing is doing, there's nothing not done.
Loses and loses till reaching doing nothing.
When nothing is being done(purposely), there's nothing that isn't done.
Does that mess up what you're trying to convey?
|
|
|
|
ChiDragon
USA
2863 Posts |
Posted - 07/29/2010 : 11:35:20 AM
|
Again, we see the famous dyad Wu2/You3. This time LaoTze compounded with 事(shi4):affair. Hence, we have 無事/有事(no affair/have affair).
取 天 下 常 以 無 事，
qu3 tian1 xia4 chang2 yi3 wu2 shi4,
1. One takes over the world with no effort.
2. One takes over the world with no incident.
3. One takes over the world with no problem.
4. One takes over the world with no trouble.
5. One rules the world with no turmoil.
6. One rules the world with no affair.
及 其 有 事 ，
ji2 qi2 you3 shi4,
and it has affair.
不 足 以 取 天 下 。
bu4 zu2 yi3 qu3 tian1 xia4.
Not sufficient to take over the world.
取 天 下 常 以 無 事， 及 其 有 事 ， 不 足 以 取 天 下 。
One who rules the world always with no affair(無事) or inextricable affairs(有事), he is inefficient to rule the world.
Edited to add the word 'always'.
-----------------------------
CD speaks doesn't know.
TTC knows doesn't speak. |
Edited by - ChiDragon on 07/29/2010 11:43:37 AM |
|
|
|
jimclatfelter
USA
1026 Posts |
Posted - 07/29/2010 : 2:12:33 PM
|
Okay, Nina, I've made some changes in light of your convincing suggestions. Nothing doing is now doing nothing. I translated 及 ji2 as overreaching rather than overtaking. I think the meaning is pretty close. Zhendic just has reaching, but I don't overreaching as much of a stretch. I think this works much better.
48
In the pursuit of learning one gains daily.
In the pursuit of Dao one loses daily,
Loses and loses through doing nothing.
Though one does nothing, there's nothing not done.
Exerting effort to gain the world is overreaching.
No effort is ever enough for this.
|
|
|
|
ChiDragon
USA
2863 Posts |
Posted - 07/29/2010 : 2:29:23 PM
|
及(ji2): and
無 事 及 其 有 事
no affair and it has affair,
But in English, it is either with no affair or with affair, but not 'and'.
It doesn't mean "to reach" here. Alas, it is very difficult to explain with a language barrier....
-----------------------------
CD speaks doesn't know.
TTC knows doesn't speak. |
Edited by - ChiDragon on 07/29/2010 2:33:39 PM |
|
|
|
jimclatfelter
USA
1026 Posts |
Posted - 07/29/2010 : 2:55:39 PM
|
What does with affair mean?
It means nothing to me! Nada! Zip! Zero! Zilch! |
|
|
|
ChiDragon
USA
2863 Posts |
Posted - 07/29/2010 : 3:48:03 PM
|
Jim.........:
"With affair" means like internal affair, national affair, military affairs, political affair within a country. Sorry, classic text is not easy to grasp.
-----------------------------
CD speaks doesn't know.
TTC knows doesn't speak. |
|
|
|
jimclatfelter
USA
1026 Posts |
Posted - 07/29/2010 : 4:00:22 PM
|
How can you rule a country with a political affair within a country?
What does that mean? |
|
|
|
ChiDragon
USA
2863 Posts |
Posted - 07/29/2010 : 4:13:10 PM
|
hmmmmmmmmmmm..............
-----------------------------
CD speaks doesn't know.
TTC knows doesn't speak. |
|
|
|
Nina
USA
6392 Posts |
Posted - 07/29/2010 : 5:18:03 PM
|
quote:
[i]Originally posted by jimclatfelter[/i]
[br]Okay, Nina, I've made some changes in light of your convincing suggestions. Nothing doing is now doing nothing. I translated 及 ji2 as overreaching rather than overtaking. I think the meaning is pretty close. Zhendic just has reaching, but I don't overreaching as much of a stretch. I think this works much better.
48
In the pursuit of learning one gains daily.
In the pursuit of Dao one loses daily,
Loses and loses through doing nothing.
Though one does nothing, there's nothing not done.
Exerting effort to gain the world is overreaching.
No effort is ever enough for this.
I think that's much better, Jim. It's proper English.
I guess you could use "overreaching" for 及 ji2.
Most of the translations I've looked at use "if", "for", "by" or "and" for 及 ji2 or don't include it at all. I don't want to lead you astray by the way I see it used in that line.
However......
In DDJ 43:
天下 希 及 之 。
tian1xia4 xi1 ji2 zhi1.
Jim:
Are seldom realized in this world.
CD:
Not many are comparable with it in the world.
Nina:
Few in the world have the ability to grasp it.
But then....... sometimes 及 ji2 is used as "if" in the DDJ too.
It just makes sense to me in this chapter that Laozi is speaking about trying to grab hold of the world - so I think your translation of it in that way can work.
及 ji2 is a pictograph of a hand reaching out to grab a person.
As for 事 shi4........
I think it's fine for CD to translate it as "affairs." Remembering, of course, that CD sees messages about "ruling China" in every chapter. So, he would interpret those lines in that way. It doesn't make sense to me either.
事 shi4 is a pictograph of a hand holding a pen - like a scribe writing. It refers to one's job, business affairs, work and the effort people put into those things.
All that aside......
I'm wondering about the way you translate this:
取 天 下 常 以 無 事 ，
qu3 tian1 xia4 chang2 yi3 wu2 shi4,
gain heaven under always take no effort
及 其 有 事 ，
ji2 qi2 you3 shi4,
if one makes effort
不 足 以 取 天 下 。
bu4 zu2 yi3 qu3 tian1 xia4.
not enough to gain heaven under
Exerting effort to gain the world is overreaching.
No effort is ever enough for this.
Did you compress that first line into the second?
And shouldn't 取 天 下 qu3 tian1 xia4 be included in the last line?
|
|
|
|
jimclatfelter
USA
1026 Posts |
Posted - 07/29/2010 : 5:46:42 PM
|
Thanks again, Nina, for pointing that out. I did compress the two lines. I've changed it to three lines now. I've added the word always for chang2. I think it sounds much better, more like Laozi's rhythm.
Exerting effort to gain the world
Is always overreaching.
No effort is ever enough for this.
|
|
|
|
ChiDragon
USA
2863 Posts |
Posted - 07/29/2010 : 5:48:52 PM
|
quote:
Posted by Nina
天下 希 及 之 。
tian1xia4 xi1 ji2 zhi1.
Jim:
Are seldom realized in this world.
CD:
Not many are comparable with it in the world.
I agree, it was properly translated here.
天下 希 及 之 。
tian1xia4 xi1 ji2 zhi1.
However, it was total incorrect in this phrase.
及 其 有 事 ，
ji2 qi2 you3 shi4,
overtake it has work
To overtake it requires work.
及 have two different meaning in these two lines. Sorry, Nina.....
-----------------------------
CD speaks doesn't know.
TTC knows doesn't speak. |
Edited by - ChiDragon on 07/29/2010 6:14:14 PM |
|
|
| |
Topic |
|
Verse 48
