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Nina
USA
6392 Posts |
 Posted - 07/26/2010 : 7:16:07 PM
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CD-
How I actually translated that line is:
When the world is out of tune with Dao, army horses thrive in the outskirts of the city.
That bothers you?
You have to take it in context with the first line:
When the world is in tune with Dao, trained horses are set free to fertilize the countryside.
Horses will thrive wherever you put them - as long as they have food. Look how many people today keep horses in corrals, and use them for their own pleasure.
The difference is........ are the horses kept in the suburbs (outskirts of the city), or allowed to roam freely in the countryside?
Which would you prefer..... being in a corral or roaming freely?
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ChiDragon
USA
2863 Posts |
Posted - 07/26/2010 : 9:48:33 PM
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I guess you don't treat the keyword 'war' or 'army' seriously. This chapter is more concern about war and peace other than having the emphasis on the horses.
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CD speaks doesn't know.
TTC knows doesn't speak. |
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ChiDragon
USA
2863 Posts |
Posted - 07/27/2010 : 12:51:59 PM
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In this chapter, here is another relative pair of 有/無(you3/wu2) used by LaoTze to illustrate his point of view about ruling with principle. Except this time he used 有/無(you3/wu2) as adjectives for Tao, 有道/無道(you3 dao4/wu2 dao4). "Tao" is being a principle instead of being the mysterious Tao itself.
These two lines can be looked at modernly and classically:
天 下 有 道 ，
tian1 xia4 you3 dao4,
heaven under have Dao
天 下 無 道 ，
tian1 xia4 wu2 dao4,
heaven under without dao
Modern translation....
With Dao in the world = When the world is in tune with Dao
Without Dao in the world = When the world is out of tune with Dao
天 下(tian1 xia4): in the world
有 道(you3 dao4): have dao4
無 道(wu2 dao4): no dao4
Classic translation...
天 下(tian1 xia4): the Country of China,
有 道(you3 dao4): have principle
無 道(wu2 dao4): no principle
天 下 有 道 ，
tian1 xia4 you3 dao4,
If China was ruled with principle, thus the country was in order and peace.
天 下 無 道 ，
tian1 xia4 wu2 dao4,
If China was ruled without principle, thus the country(in the Waring States Period) might be constantly at war.
Now, here comes the horses. LaoTze was using a horse to illustrate the distinction between the period in war and peace.
Instead of saying:
1. If China was ruled with principle, thus the country was in order and peace.
2. If China was ruled without principle, thus the might be constantly at war.
LaoTze said in a classical way:
1. If the earth was ruled with principle, the horse can run on manure.
2. If the earth was ruled without principle, the war horse have to bear its offspring in the wilderness.
In line 1:
"The horse can run on manure", the key word is 'manure' which was used to fertilize the soil. The thought was implicating using the horses to do farming in peace time.
In line 2:
"The war horse have to bear its offspring in the wilderness", the key words are "war horse". It was implicating, during a war, regardless what condition are the horses, they will be used for war. Even though, a horse was pregnant will bear their young in the battlefield if it has to.
LaoTze was using horses in these two lines the illustrate the difference between the war and peace; and demonstrated how cruel a war was. What could be happened to the horses, one can imaging that what could happen to the people also.
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CD speaks doesn't know.
TTC knows doesn't speak. |
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Nina
USA
6392 Posts |
Posted - 07/27/2010 : 7:13:21 PM
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quote:
[i]Originally posted by ChiDragon[/i]
[br]I guess you don't treat the keyword 'war' or 'army' seriously. This chapter is more concern about war and peace other than having the emphasis on the horses.
I agree this chapter isn't specifically about horses, but they're used as a representation of how people use other creatures and other people to attain their own greedy aspirations.
If you think this chapter is only about war and peace, then I think you might have missed something. Your interpretation is so Confucian - talking about "principles"?
As for crime - nothing contributes to it more than wanting too much.
As for offending others - nothing is sadder than the desire to gain.
As for misfortune - nothing is greater than not being content with what you have.
Know that you already have enough, your actions are enough, and you'll always be enough.
If Dao had "principles" that one must follow, then that would mean no one could feel like they were already enough just for being who they are.
If you keep blaming those in power for the ills in the world, then ........
I don't think Laozi was doing that.
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ChiDragon
USA
2863 Posts |
Posted - 07/27/2010 : 7:50:28 PM
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Tao is just being natural and does not have principles, but LaoTze was using Tao as a model to giving example of the principles for human. I always think the DDJ is a piece of stand alone document; I am only interpreting what it says. Please don't accuse me of introducing other philosophies for any of the interpretations. If you think LaoTze has no principles, then I don't really know what to say to you.....!!! May be like you said, I am missing something or knew something you didn't know...
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CD speaks doesn't know.
TTC knows doesn't speak. |
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Nina
USA
6392 Posts |
Posted - 07/29/2010 : 5:23:34 PM
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CD-
I gave up on the idea of "principles" a long time ago. Maybe you're still holding on to them?
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ChiDragon
USA
2863 Posts |
Posted - 07/30/2010 : 09:04:10 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Nina
CD-
I gave up on the idea of "principles" a long time ago. Maybe you're still holding on to them?
Huh.....
You have been studying the DDJ with no "principles". Wow, now I know whom am I dealing with. No wonder we are having communication problems besides the language barrier.....
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CD speaks doesn't know.
TTC knows doesn't speak. |
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Verse 46
